Ep. 136: Power of Effective Treat Delivery with Emma Parsons

Scent Work is a unique dog sport as handlers are encouraged and expected to reward their dogs upon finding a hide or finishing a search. However, does it matter HOW we reward the dog, especially when using treats? "I gave my dog is a cookie, isn't that enough?" NO!

In this episode, we speak with Emma Parsons, the author of The New Click to Calm; Solutions for All Dogs in a Challenging World and Teaching the Reactive Dog Class; Leading the Journey from Reactivity to Reliability about the power of effective treat delivery. Pulling from her vast experience working with sensitive and reactive dogs, as well as training and competing in agility and competition obedience, Emma delves into how being more mindful in our treat delivery can make an enormous difference for our dogs.

The principles covered in this podcast episode apply to all interactions we have with our dogs, in daily life, when training or even when playing the sniffing game.

VIDEO EXAMPLES

Joshua - Cup on a Stick

Do you have a reactive or sensitive dog and looking for more resources to help them succeed in a daily life, at class or when trialing with them? Be certain to check out Emma's Click to Calm: Turning Fear and Frustration Into Focus Through Positive Reinforcement Webinar.

Speakers:

• Emma Parsons
• Dianna L. Santos

TRANSCRIPT

Dianna L. Santos (00:00:00):
Welcome to the All About Scent Work podcast. In this podcast we talk about all things Scent Work that includes training tips, a behind scenes look of what your instructor or trial official is going through and much more. In this spotlight series, we have the opportunity to speak with Emma Parsons, the author of Click to Calm and Teaching the Reactive Dog Class all about a wonderful thing that we should all consider when training: treat delivery. So before we start diving into the episode itself, let me do a very quick introduction of myself. My name is Dianna Santos. I'm the Owner and Lead Instructor of Scent Work University. This is an online dog training platform where we provide online courses, seminars, webinars, and eBooks. They're all centered around Scent Work. So regardless of where you are in your sniffing journey, you're just getting started, you're looking to develop some more advanced skills, you're interested in competing or you're already trialing at the upper levels, we likely have a training solution for you. So now that you know a little bit more about me, let's dive into the episode itself.

(00:00:56):
In this episode, I have the distinct privilege of speaking to one of my mentors, Emma Parsons, all about the importance of treat delivery. And yes, this applies to all types of dog training, including Scent Work, so please have a listen to that conversation. Alright, so I'm so delighted to be able to talk to my mentor, the wonderful Emma Parsons today. This is the person who got me formally involved in dog training with my fantastic boy Zeus in her reactive dog classes, which I'm so incredibly thankful for and I've been staying in touch, not as much as I should be. But I listened to one of her presentations as she did for a conference, and she was talking about treat delivery. And I said, oh my God, I need to talk to Emma about this. It's amazing. So Emma, can you just give a quick overview about this treat delivery process? People are like, yeah, I gave the treat to the dog. Isn't that enough?

Emma Parsons (00:01:44):
Yeah, sure. Well, first of all, if people giving dog treats, I'm very happy. But besides that fact, I do think the way we give dogs their reinforcement really does matter, right? Because you always have to think when you are creating a behavior, the way you reinforce it is going to set an emotional overtone on that behavior. So if I am working on a behavior like a stay, for example, I don't want to be giving treats really quickly. I want to have a nice calmer way of dispensing the treat. And I want people to start thinking about treat delivery as this connection, this kind of intimate connection with their dog where it's just them, their dogs, and this passing of communication. Because if you think about it, the reinforcement is representative of a behavior that's accomplished, whether it is a behavior chain, whether it is one tiny little detail of behavior, whatever that behavior is that's being reinforced, it deserves be reinforced in an appropriate manner. And I want people to understand that and know that every single time they do that, and I want everyone to think about that. If every single time you made that motion of you delivering a treat to your dog, making it a connection, do you think you'd ever have a problem with connection? The answer would be no. Right?

Dianna L. Santos (00:03:24):
And could you say why? Could you build on why that would be? Sure. A lot of people are still like, I don't believe you.

Emma Parsons (00:03:31):
But the thing is this, right? Think about it with people. We all use the same learning theory, whether a person, a dog, a horse, whatever. And the thing is, if you were with somebody and you gave somebody something as a reinforcement, I don't know, you are like, oh, here, you did a really good job. I'm going to give you, I will say my favorite Reese's peanut butter cups. If I give you this and I just throw it at you, how do you feel? As much as I love them, I would probably take it and throw it back at them and be like, here you go. What is that? What did I do to deserve that? Right?

(00:04:12):
So the thing is we have to think about, we're always communicating with our dogs. The difficulty with the dogs is that they're different species. They pick up. I mean, they're brilliant, but they pick up what we say, how we do things, how we move our bodies, the way we smell, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. However, we have to respect that about them. And if we are teaching something like a precise behavior, you need to deliver that tree with precision because if you don't, you could destroy the very behavior that you are thinking about teaching. I will give you a quick example. One of the things that for me, when I'm teaching healing, let's say because I compete in agility and obedience, when I'm working on a behavior like healing, I want precision. So I am going to take my treat and I'm going to place it in the dog's mouth.

(00:05:13):
Now if I do it sloppily or if I drop a treat, what does that do to my training loop? I just put this horrendous glitch in my training loop for no reason except for my own impatience. And okay, you may say, well, we don't care about clean training loops. Well, you know what? You need to, no matter what sport you do, or even if you are not even engaged in a sport, but you're trying to teach your dog household manners, things like this, the cleanest training loops, if you collect those and put them in your training bank account, your dog's behavior will get reliable so much faster. They'll be able to do that behavior in higher distractions than you think. So it's so important about what we give as our reinforcement, but also how we deliver it. Because the way you deliver it can either make or break your behavior. And I will remind everybody, you can train a behavior, but you can untrain it just as fast. So these are things we really have to pay attention to,

Dianna L. Santos (00:06:19):
And I think it's such a powerful thing that again, most people don't think about. They just think, okay, you finally convinced you I'm going to give a treat. I gave the treat, I'm done. So can you talk a little bit more about some of the misconceptions that are around or that you've encountered while you've been doing training, both as an instructor and with your own dogs about food delivery?

Emma Parsons (00:06:38):
I think where that all comes from is at least when I started training many, many years ago, we weren't allowed to give treats. But the thing is, as we started to kind of come into that positive reinforcement community building that some of my clients, I was lucky if they would give the dog a treat, nevermind talk about how to give the treat. So I definitely think this has been a learning process for all of us because sometimes we think, especially like me, if you come from a traditional training background many, many, many years ago, we don't have really respect for the treat delivery. We are just thinking, you know what? I can check that off my list. I gave the dog a treat for doing X and I did what I was supposed to do.

(00:07:26):
And it's just so interesting because in my nu click to come, the book I wrote not too long ago, there's a piece in there where I say, I want you to click and feed one treat for looking at a stimulus, and then I want you to feed five treats with a click for looking at the returning voluntary check-in or eye contact. But what's so interesting about that, dogs are so used to people only giving them one quick treat, that they don't take five treats, you give them one, maybe two, and their attention is elsewhere because they have never been taught that they can get five treats in a row.

(00:08:11):
And you may say, why is it five treats in a row? I'm just going to tell everybody because when I said to my clients, because when we have reactive dogs, we want them fixed as soon as we can. So I was Dr. Susan Friedman who I went to one of her seminars and I remember her saying, why are we not paying more for the behavior we want more of? And I thought to myself, oh my gosh, why am we not feeding more when we have reactive dogs? Why are we not feeding more for looking back at us?

(00:08:42):
Why are we not doing that? So that's really started the beginning of my real focus on treat delivery, which is where I'd say to my students, I want you to give five treats for the dog checking in with you, looking back at you. And it was just funny because in the beginning I would say, I want you to give them more than one. So what happened when I said more than one? How many did they give them? 2, 2, 2. So then I thought, oh no, heck no. I want more than two. So I just picked five out of a basket out of my head, just five. But it wasn't just giving them five treats and a handful scattering, five treats on the floor. It was giving one, take a breath, two, take a breath, three, take a breath up until five treats were delivered. But if you haven't practiced that with your dogs, they're also taking breaths and you think, well, how can that treat delivery help me with my reactive dog? Well, that's pretty easy to see because now we're both breathing together. We have moved away from the stimulus, we're having this moment together. And those deposits, if you think about each time you practice that behavior, you times five into your deposit of your reinforcement bank, your behavior becomes that much better, that much faster by just paying attention to how many treats you're feeding and how you are feeding them.

Dianna L. Santos (00:10:20):
When you say how you're feeding them, is that just simply how I get the food to the dog's face? Or is it also with the tone of voice that I'm using, the facial expressions, my overall energy and the way that I'm emoting is all of that part of it as well?

Emma Parsons (00:10:36):
This is the thing, the situation that I just described, yes. When you are talking to your dog, telling them how great they are as you're feeding, as you're breathing and they're breathing, that's just this lovely pause that you're taking these moments of calm behavior in these challenging situations. So in that case, yes, although the way we feed treats, it might not just be by hand. I mean we can do treats to the mouth and that's fine, but if you have a grabby dog, I wouldn't give it with your fingers all in the front of the treat. I would lay it on my open palm so it can be presented to the dog that way. If you are working on something like reactivity, you can take the treats and put them on the ground.

(00:11:27):
And if you do that again in a rhythmic motion, that's also going to help them to feel better if your treat happens to be a lick mat with peanut butter on it, because we have to think if we are dealing with some kind of very challenging environment, the more the dog's head can drop, the more the dog can be licking and it takes time for them to eat the treat. So again, what you choose as reinforcement is going to be all that nice dopamine, all those calming chemicals are happening there. But it could mean that you are doing a treat scatter. It could mean, and we'll talk about that in a second, but it could mean that you are working on distance behavior. So your dog needs to go out to a target that has treats. Again, how they get access to that is going to be dependent on, again, what behavior you're working on and how you dispense it to them.

(00:12:25):
But the thing about the treats scatter, so I'm not a big treat scatterer, and let me tell you why I use it as management. I think it's a great management tool. So when I had been many, many years ago, if I saw a dog coming and I really didn't have much treats and I didn't have my clicker with me to work, I would take my treats and I would scatter them and he had a cue that meant go and find them. So while his head is busy searching, then the person with the dog would walk by and I'd be okay. So lovely management. But what you have to be very careful about with something like a treat scatter is where is it coming into that behavior chain?

(00:13:11):
If I have a dog that's doing a behavior that I don't necessarily like and I interrupt it with a treat scatter, what starts to happen is the behavior that I don't really like, whatever that is, and it could be something is reactivity, it could be another behavior before you heal or do a sit stay or whatever. But my point is, is that inappropriate or that behavior that you don't want can become the cue for to get the treat scattered. So we got to be really careful because that is a lot of reinforcement at one time.

(00:13:43):
And again, I don't feel like when I did treat scatters before with Ben, I didn't just throw the trees. I feel like that's hostile sometimes. Here they go, but I would just take them and I would scatter them with light fingers so they could watch where all those little things went right, and then they were like, oh, let me add them. So then I'd give them a verbal cue to do it because I don't want them to think that there's a treat scatter in every piece of grass we walk by that can interfere with the behavior that I'm working on.

Dianna L. Santos (00:14:19):
So is that one of the special appreciations that we have to have with using treats is the dog's interpretation of what it is that we're doing? Then it can make sense to us as people, but then the dog makes all these other connections we're like, oh, well that's not what I meant.

Emma Parsons (00:14:33):
Well, exactly right. But one thing I want to mention is that when we have baby puppies, we do a lot of luring, which is totally appropriate. We do a lot of luring, but the issue with that is the treat and the hand can become the cue. If we don't rid of that treat quick enough, it can become the cue that that's what I see before I do X behavior. So if you have clients and anyone listening who says, I don't want to use treats because I don't want the dog doing it for treats, right? Chances are saying that because they've done so much luring that now that has become the cue to do the behavior. So as much as we may toss treats at dogs, it's important that the dog understands why they're getting reinforced and how they're getting reinforced. And I think we talked a little bit before about how that process of giving treat has come up, but I do think that sometimes we get too caught in the whole luring situation and then especially with clients who don't know much training information, and then they're like, well, this works good, and they use a treat for everything.

(00:15:48):
And the first thing, they don't have treats and then they say, oh my gosh, my dog isn't trained. I don't know where I went wrong. And then it's not that they went wrong, it's just that the learning theory behind it was not sound because they need to understand that if the treat is always part of the context, then it always has to be part of the context.

Dianna L. Santos (00:16:11):
So instead of the treat being the reward, it is now what you're talking about is the cue of I don't see treat, I don't do things?

Emma Parsons (00:16:17):
Right. That's right. We have to remember, we're always taught one Q1 behavior, which is true. But the thing is, is that there are so many contextual cues around us, and when we have young dogs and really young dogs, they really don't know how much is around the world yet until they become adolescents and all their reinforces are screaming out to them. And that's when we have to go into the behavior store and say, wait, I need to buy a treat for a hundred bucks and see for Joshua, my border collie. That's the little sardines in a pouch or whatever. But he loves them. But really the way you dispense what you're using is extremely important with clients. I teach them about the behavior store. When I'm in the house, I might give them a 5 cent reinforcement, maybe it's Charlie Bears or something. When I step outside into my backyard, maybe that's when the cheese comes into play. Although I will tell you one of my papillons who is now an adolescent, has decided that collecting acorns is much funner right now than practicing her teeter. So now I'm going out with meat because that's my $50 reinforcement.

(00:17:33):
And with a tiny dog, again, it makes sense to really think about how you're dispensing that treat.

Dianna L. Santos (00:17:42):
So specifically because your background is with so much in working with dogs that are sensitive and reactive, what are some of the ways that purposeful treat delivery can really help those dogs in particular?

Emma Parsons (00:17:52):
The first thing is calm feeding. When you have dogs that are reactive, they want you to do things at a hundred miles a minute and you're not doing that. I always say to my clients, when they tell you to do something really fast, you're going to do something really slow.

(00:18:10):
So whether it's getting the treat out of the pocket, oh, it's taken me so much time, you got to wait. Whether it's dispensing the treats, we want to do it one, then count to three or four, another one we need for them to slow down again, we would want that rhythmic. Anytime they're licking anything like that is a great reinforcement for a reactive dog because we want things to slow down. I will say cup on a stick. Kay Lawrence is the brainchild for that methodology, which I love because my Joshua, who is now going to be five at the end of the year, the first three years of his life, he was in pain from Tecot syndrome. He went to probably about seven or eight doctors, some specialists. We took him everywhere. And finally we figured out that he had this condition, he had a spinal surgery.

(00:19:06):
And so when I tell you he is reactive, it's not an overstatement because he is bouncing and lunging and barking. And I understand it came from pain when he was younger and he associated a lot of that with people with dogs and in that agility context. But I will tell you, Kay Lawrence has something called cup on a stick, and it's literally a measuring cup that you bind up with a dowel. And so being able to do this treat delivery with him at a distance was so effective for him because for once, because I got to tell you, first of all, he's not a foodie and he likes some things. I had to do a lot of experimenting with him, like the whole process of taking the cup, putting the little, I use Charlie Bears, put a little thing in the Charlie bear in the cup, it makes a little ding sound like he watches.

(00:20:07):
And then I put it to the side and I just started with him just dumping the cup onto the floor and he watched that whole process. And the thing about a cup on a stick is that you're able to reinforce them at a distance. So there's no body pressure, no me staring at him, no, me bending at him. He was the dog. He is a border collie, so he was the dog that when he started to bark and lunge, he would totally stop barking and lunge at me. So trying to eat, you couldn't even see a cookie if I tried to give him one. So feeding him by mouth was not going to work. So for a while I would click put it on the floor. Although I will add that he's partially deaf. So if he doesn't, he really, I believe he cannot hear the click.

(00:20:57):
If he sees my thumb, press the click the clicker. That is what I really think is his condition reinforcer. But my point is when I put it on the floor, he would gobble it up and then jump back on me. So what was nice about the cup on the stick is I could load it from the side and then I could present it on the side so that then I started building up behaviors with it. So to give you an example, now I can take it into the agility context. I will have 'em chase a couple cookies that are delivered through cup on a stick, and then I can send them to a jumper two, and it's very controlled because that cup on a stick process has put 'em into thinking brain,

Dianna L. Santos (00:21:40):
Yes,

Emma Parsons (00:21:41):
Put 'em into thinking brain versus border, colly, TV brain where he just wants to look at everything and B, at everything and everything that moves because he's super smart. But I need him in that brain, that thinking brain, that connection brain because that's the only way he can do his work. I want to say calmly, but also strategically is the word I want strategically that he knows that he's got to keep his feet up as he goes over, because again, he had back surgery. So little by little we had to teach him to jump again. So I love cup on a stick for reactive dogs because it really makes a difference about taking that brain that's going a hundred miles a minute to getting them involved in this process of, look, I'm putting the little cookie in the thing and then I'm putting it down.

(00:22:32):
I will tell you, Kay Lawrence does not use it for reactivity, but she uses it for building healing or fitness. I mean, she has a lot of uses for it, but I'm the one who said, Kay, I want to use this for reactivity because I've got some great video when some workshops that I've done of dogs that, again, they're not aggressive, they're just really excited, adolescents trying to do agility, trying to do some spins around cones and things and they can't handle it, and they're barking and jumping at their person, and then we start doing just even 10 little cookies dispensed that way, and they get into that thinking brain and it becomes so much smoother. So that's another methodology I really like.

Dianna L. Santos (00:23:20):
Could that also be helpful for dogs who find themselves more in the sensitive side of the spectrum where they get really worried about their person or they get worried about being wrong in a given exercise and any amount of pressure just makes them kind of melt? Could this help them as far as not having the pressure of the handler where they can really focus on a really clear this is what's happening, you did well, now you have this expectation about what's going to happen.

Emma Parsons (00:23:46):
For sure. And also what benefits a lot too are dogs that are really sensitive with strangers or visitors, right? Because if they already know the cup on the stick game and you can add the clicker to it, sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. I mean, it just depends. But if you can get that going, I mean you can have some visitors because again, you take away all the body pressure. I mean, think about it when you ask somebody, because I see this all the time, so I'm going to use it as the example is when I have dogs that are aggressive with people who are shy of people or whatever, fill in the blank. But the thing is they're not comfortable with people's body pressure. So if you, well-meaning clients have said to me, I give them my dog's favorite treat, and I'm just thinking if they can give it to them, they will be able to take it and the dog will be happy and see that they're a friend.

(00:24:38):
But see, the problem with that is now you've created conflict because if you could do that with anybody, you stop anybody on the street and you say, can you give my dog a treat? I guarantee the hand's coming out, they're bent at the waist and they're looking at the dog and they may or may not use the baby voice with it. So the thing is, if you teach them the cup on a stick is a thing and that this is how they can get some reinforcement, it's a lovely way then for maybe visitors to say, I can give you a cookie, but I'm not going to reach towards you. I'm just going to play this game that you already know how to play, and I'm going to reinforce you even just for being in this same room with me, not for asking you to do anything. Because sometimes just the person's presence is enough pressure for the dog to even walk into a room.

(00:25:34):
I mean, I can remember using it for a dog. It was a great Dane who just, I was in the kitchen, there was a room off to one side, there was a patio off to the other side, and I literally just took a cookie as I was talking to the client and just flicked the little cup and they got it almost. I kind of flicked it into the other room. And the first thing within, I don't know, 15 or 20 minutes, the dog's in the same room with us. And this was a dog who had some trauma that they adopted, but that's the first thing. The dog was testing with me because kept looking at me and leaving, looking at me and leaving, do you want to be my friend? We all want dogs to be our friends, but it's not appropriate for dogs who can't deal with pressure.

(00:26:23):
I mean, think about it. When somebody comes up really close to us and they invade our body space, what do we do? We take a step back and this is what's happening with our dogs, and they have, I'm sure if they could talk in our language, they would tell us exactly why they're afraid of somebody or exactly what is reminding them of something from a form context that they were freaked of or they have anxiety about, right? So I love this cup on a stick. I am doing more playing with it, especially with Joshua and with clients being able to dispense a treat at a distance. And I'm even thinking at some point maybe putting something lickable in that that will also help to calm the dog down again, I just think it's a fabulous, fabulous technology

Dianna L. Santos (00:27:12):
Leveraging something that we've had all this time, but actually using it more of a thoughtful tool to really better communicate to the dog what it's supposed to be. It's not supposed to be this, well, I was told by my instructor that I have to give a cookie, here's a cookie. It's actually supposed to be this powerful thing. So many of our listeners are also involved in dog sports, any variety of dog sports, and they're thinking, okay, well that's all fine dandy, but how is this supposed to apply to me? So convince them that it also applies to them.

Emma Parsons (00:27:39):
Well, I don't know what else to say to Ken. It depends on what you're working on. It depends on what you're working on. If you are working on behavior. I'll give you some agility examples. If you're working on behavior where you're sending your dog away from you, a lot of us use targets, but if you have a dog like mine, they decide that they're going to just run to the target and eat the treat. And I've trained by myself, so I can't have the luxury of saying to somebody if they complete the poles, for example, put a treat in the modular lid. So again, thoughtful treat delivery. How can I get the behavior I'm looking for if I train by myself, but I need distance. So what I did with Spirit is I took a bunch of cheese, put it in a little Rubbermaid dish with a lid, put it out there, showed her that I could give her a couple treats, but then I put it on the ground. So she's like batting it around. Well, I can't open it. You have to open it for me. Yes, I do. So now I'm going to put it out and then I'm going to use it. Because again, that is another type of way to deliver treats.

(00:28:48):
The other thing that we also need to explore maybe in a different webinar or podcast is now that I'm using the treat and train or the man's minder for whatever distance you've got for behavior, or I'm using the modular lid, how do I convince my dog that when I run out there, it's not just about that. I got to tell you, my little 1-year-old Katie Pap on, I step out onto the agility course and she runs around looking for the treat and treat, and I'm like, okay, wait a minute. But the reason I say that is because if it didn't matter, she wouldn't be looking for it. They wouldn't be looking for a target, they wouldn't be looking for a treat and train. They wouldn't be looking for these things. So it does matter. I always say the behavior that you teach is the emotion that comes with that is dependent upon how you are delivering reinforcement, what you're using for delivering reinforcement.

(00:29:53):
And if I am going to feed cookies at a very fast pace, then I'm going to get probably more quick frantic behavior, which I don't necessarily want even in agility. I don't necessarily want it because speed is great, but if your dog's not connected to you, what is the point? Because you're never going to qualify for anything. So that's a whole different criteria you have to think about in this behavior. What am I looking for? If I'm working on healing, I'm looking for precision. How do I get precision with a treat delivery? I'm going to be precise about where I feed it. I'm not going to feed it where the dog is. I'm going to feed it where I want the dog to be. Same thing with your fronts. Where am I going to feed? I'm going to feed where I want the dog to be. So that's precision. If I'm working on something like a stay behavior, I am going to make sure that I am going to, again, not give treats. Let's say you're working on a, I dunno making it up a two minute sit day. You're not going to give treats. And you may say, well, why that's worked for my other dog. The problem is, is because that can become superstitious

(00:31:11):
Timing of that treat delivery. So you have to really think about, okay, I'm going to do 30 seconds. I'm going to position my dog stay where you, however you're working it, and then I'm going to count in my head, set my timer, and then I'm going to come back to either toss the cookie forward with a cue to get it or I'm going to feed in position. But if I feed in between, I've done that with some of my dogs in the past, and you know what? I get Scotchy feet. Scotchy feet because I don't know how they're perceiving the reason of why they're getting that cookie. I don't know if they think they're sitting there. I don't know if, because I've had dogs look to the left just to the right just at things in the environment, and then if I don't feed, they look to the left and the right when nothing's happening. So I don't know how that dog is really understanding why they're getting the reinforcement,

(00:32:15):
But now I've cleaned that up completely with my guys now, and this is the behavior. You're going to stay here. I'll do five seconds. I come back, I give a mock word, and then I go ahead and give the treat. If you're going to toss treats again, that's great for resetting. Again, dog on the mats. How many times do we teach dogs to go to their safe spot quickly? We spend a lot of time feeding in position right on the mat. And let me say, if you're working on behavior between the front feet, please, you feed to the mouth. You know what you're going to get creeping up. Creeping up. Where you feed is where the energy goes. So if I feed my dog to the mouth, you have to make sure you feed the mouth underneath the chin. If you don't do that, you're going to end up with a dog whose elbows are now off the floor.

(00:33:11):
And now if you think you're teaching a settle on a mat, doing that, you're not right. But how many of us think about, I want to teach my dog to run to the mat on a verbal cue, run to the safe space on a verbal cue. We haven't done that because the treat delivery here would be having them go clicking or whatever marker you're using, sending the cookie off in the other direction, giving them a cue that you've thrown it. Because again, when we are in sports, whatever sport you're in, you don't want your dog thinking, I moved my arm, my left or my right arm. Oh, she must've thrown a treat somewhere here. And then the dog leaves looking for a treat, and then you get mad. But it's just like, oh, I guess because I never gave a verbal release, my dog is seeing that as a cue that I toss something. But the thing is, using a treat that way you can reset them really fast and you can teach them to quickly go to their safe space. Of course, I use that to go to the table and agility. I do agility, right? Let's run to that table and do your sitter do your down. But they also know run to your crate, run to your safe space in your bedroom. And it's all dependent. That behavior is dependent on how you give your reinforcement.

Dianna L. Santos (00:34:34):
I'm hoping that this is making sense for people that it's so incredibly impactful and powerful, but so many of us don't tap into it or it's really sloppy and misunderstood by the dog because we don't really understand it. We're just like, well, here's a treat, but it's more specific than that. And the way and the thought process, the meaning behind it is what is so incredibly powerful. So that's why I'm just so excited. Again, I listened to that conference, I got to thought to S, yeah,

Emma Parsons (00:35:00):
It's something that I always knew and I think I just did because I'm a neatnik and I think that's why reactive dogs in my thing, because I'm always like, I want clean training loops and I want to take things slower because I'm somebody. I really want to teach good behavior as quickly as I can. And when I say quickly, I don't mean that I just throw things together, but I want to make sure to work on each piece of criteria at a time because that is what learning theory tells us. So I want to make sure that I don't like going back to fill holes.

(00:35:36):
You know what I'm saying? I really don't want to pick up a shovel anytime soon. Dig these holes, right? I don't, and I've done that enough when I was a beginner trainer many years ago, and again, advanced training is just us absorbing the beginner stuff better and better and better, almost relearning it to the point where it's smooth and it's clean and it's crisp. The thing is, is that I always was thoughtful about treat delivery, but I will say it really, I hit me again when I started working with Joshua, my board Collie, who had all these issues and then being half deaf, you could say something, but he didn't look in the direction that you set it in necessarily. So it really got me thinking to, okay, I really need to find a way to reinforce him, but I want calm behavior from him.

(00:36:36):
And that's when I started working a lot with a cup on a stick. I mean, I knew about that technology before, but with that, I used it for my healing and obedience. But with the reactivity, I really didn't give enough thought back then to how dogs follow these processes. How when you're getting the cookies ready and when you are putting them in your hand, taking them out of your pocket or however you dispense, they are really so focused on that. And sometimes we want that focus and sometimes we don't because then we've got to wean them off it depending on what sport we're in. But it's important how you deliver what the timing is in between that you deliver, whether a treat is crunchy or soft, whether it's leaky or not. All those convey different emotions to your dog and they partake in those emotions as you're working on those pieces. So I really had a newfound appreciation for, again, working with the dog very, I mean, they're all so intelligent. I got to tell you, my Joshua was the puppy at whatever he was nine weeks old or whatever he was where I tossed a treat, and here I am just tossing the treat and the kennel and being like, all right, go in there. And he looked at me and looked at the treat and said, I don't think that's in my best interest. And I thought, oh, that's great. I'm glad I one of these great.

(00:38:19):
But then I started thinking about reinforcement value, and so the next time I didn't do it, I fed him his meal in the crate and the meal had all kinds of things in it, and it was ana topple and spilling off into the bowl, and he thought that was the greatest puzzle ever. So then when he saw that coming, there was no convincing him. He knew that this was very mentally stimulating and he was all over it, right? Because the treat just tossed in a crate was just no. The fast food, as Leslie Nelson used to say, I love that saying, no fast food, fine dining.

Dianna L. Santos (00:39:00):
Yes,

Emma Parsons (00:39:00):
Fine dining,

Dianna L. Santos (00:39:01):
Right?

Emma Parsons (00:39:03):
And I always remembered that because years ago it was just, yeah, I'm just giving a treat. But the more that dogs know, the more you know how intelligent they are, the more how sensitive they are, the more we have to take the time that if you are one who doesn't think about it, what I hope this podcast will help you do is look at behaviors that you're not as happy with or that have not become as reliable as you wish they would be. And just see, because I bet your treat delivery has so much to do with it, I

Dianna L. Santos (00:39:41):
Think it's a really good reminder for people. Would you suggest that people video not only their training sessions, but maybe when they are just interacting with their dogs and looking to see what their dogs like or what they do, and if it's the kind of response that they were looking for, they hope that they would get, could that potentially help?

Emma Parsons (00:39:58):
Absolutely. I mean, I always video my training sessions. Again, it'd be nice if I had somebody to train with. I usually do not. So the only coach that I have from day to day is myself. So I videotape it and I look to see what was my body doing at this point in time? Because you can tell some treat deliveries are just sloppy. Or again, depending on the behavior, I want my dogs to head to bounce up a lot faster than it is. Then I think, okay, you know what? That treat delivery is not appropriate for this behavior. Or with my pap on, I have this lovely video and I love using it in my workshops because I say, I want everybody to look at this video and look how I'm feeding my dog because, so what I did is he's on a chair and I was working on staying on the chair, not a sit stay necessarily, but he just happened to be sitting, but stay on the chair.

(00:40:57):
So when you look at him and you look at the way I'm feeding him, because what I'm doing is I'm clicking him and I'm feeding him, but the way the height at which I'm feeding his mouth, his head is bending and then coming up. So I give him the treat to his mouth. I didn't want him to get up. So I give the treat square onto his mouth, but in order to chew the treat, his head goes down to chew, chew his head goes back up. So when you look at this video, you think you see it, but then as I go around to the back of the chair, I'm actually teaching him a head dip. Yeah, I would never have known that he stayed on the chair the entire time.

(00:41:40):
And then I'd be one to say, well, why are you jumping off chairs? Because I taught you to stay on a chair. And little did I know as I was teaching him a head dip on a chair. And the reason why I did that, I don't know why I didn't do it on purpose, but the reason why that happened is because of my treat delivery of my treat delivery. Because I didn't think about the mechanics of his mouth being such a small dog that he had to bend his head, chew, chew, chew, and the head came back up again. So I ended up with a head dip.

Dianna L. Santos (00:42:13):
Right. That's amazing. So does that also played well with the power of the marker? Is the marker and the treat delivery, are they in partnership with each other? So the dog is making that complete picture where the marker, they have one picture in their mind, but then also the treat is offering a reinforcing picture that then potentially they're putting that all together. The reason I ask is that my Zeus was a clicker savant. Again, I was a very, very baby trainer and I was not very good, but he was excellent. So he learned or taught himself how to march in place because he was putting things together that I didn't even realize. I'm like, oh, look at what you're doing.

Emma Parsons (00:42:53):
Yes, exactly.

Dianna L. Santos (00:42:54):
Yes. So is that a possibility as well, that particularly when you're using markers, particularly for dogs who really are keen to those, that it's the combination of that and the reinforcement that could potentially create a bigger picture than we may have thought of previously?

Emma Parsons (00:43:11):
For sure. I mean, the thing is you want the marking of your signal to be, and the delivery of your treat to be like one package. I think we run into difficulty when, again, we have super smart dogs, so if their body is doing something else at the same time that we click, we really don't know what they perceive that behavior to be. And that's why I use that example with Zach, my pape, because had I not videotaped it, honestly, I did not know it until I reviewed the video and went, oh my gosh, that's not what I was teaching him. Because my brain was saying, I'm clicking you for staying on the chair,

(00:44:00):
But he thought his brain was clicking him for the head dip or his head dipped down. And I wasn't thinking about the fact that because what he would do is eat his treat and then I kind of count to three and it would just be just about coming up. And then, because again, I'm thinking he's still on the chair. But that's the thing, if you are teaching, I mean you probably remember the lipic from KPA and how that's really challenging because your timing of your marker has to be such that your dog is licking their lips, but not because they just had a treat.

(00:44:46):
You had to start to separate the two. Same thing with when I was with my Papillon from my last group of dogs. I'm trying to teach him how to hold a dumbbell, and his tiny little mouth is there. So when I click, if you think about the marker, the clicker is right. You hit click, click, right? Ch chuck, in the time it took me to chuck, chuck, his mouth was off it. So again, what's the right marker signal for that? It wasn't necessarily the clicker, right? Or I had to pre click. Not that I want to put any more terminology out there, but I almost had to think, can I bet five bucks that he's going to open his mouth and hold it? If I can, I'm going to have to click as it's happening.

(00:45:31):
But these two things should be separate from each other. I choose my marker signal based on what I'm trying to train. For example, when I'm working on my stay behavior, my calming massage, all that, I don't use the clicker. Like Joshua, I've done a lot of massage with him, so he'd allow me to put my hands on his body. It was a lot of good boy, very soothing. That was my marker right as I was doing it.

(00:46:00):
And then I choose the right treat delivery to accentuate that behavior. So they go hand in hand, but you do want them to be separate. And I do want to say one thing years ago, it always used to be like click, click, click, click, click, click, click and feed, click and feed, click and feed. And you know what the bottom line is? You don't need to click and feed within five seconds. You really don't. I mean, there was a study, I want to say came out at some point years ago. So everybody, so many clients, when I tried to say he has a clicker, they'd say, oh, I can't do that. I can't think that fast. And I'd say, what are you talking about? And they say, oh, I know you got to feed within five seconds. And I'm like, no, you really don't. If you're training chickens, maybe, but not the dogs. They get it. And it's preferable sometimes to click breathe a little and then go ahead and give the treat because then you create a little bit of a pause and we need pauses, don't have, so

Dianna L. Santos (00:46:56):
It's not a frantic

Emma Parsons (00:46:57):
No no, because that's, again, if you think about our working dogs, so many of our working dogs want to do things so fast and we need to get them into a rhythm. And it doesn't mean we ask them to go super slow, but we do have to work them at a rate that we can handle or else we don't produce good behavior. But if you don't teach precision, you're out of luck, right? So yeah, I mean, they come as a nice package, but you want to make sure you choose the right marker signal for the right behavior. And your treat delivery reflects the emotion that you're trying to achieve in that behavior.

Dianna L. Santos (00:47:41):
That's amazing. I love it. And just to wrap this up, because I'm hoping that people, their brains are percolating about these things. The other two pieces of the puzzle that I think that many of us aren't utilizing enough is verbal praise and tactile praise.

(00:47:55):
Are those also things that people can approach with the same type of mindset that you're talking about with treat delivery of choosing how to use their voice and how to use their touch to better communicate and connect with their dogs?

Emma Parsons (00:48:07):
Absolutely. For sure. And we did a lot of this with reactivity, right? Because some dogs just don't eat and they definitely don't play. You have to think about your tone of your voice. And I steer away from verbal markers only because I'm so sick of hearing, say to a client, what's your verbal marker? Yes. And they say it almost in the exact same way that they talk to people because the dog, it makes no impression on the dog. Now, when I use my verbal marker, it's very high pitch. That's what I use. I'm never going to say that, oh, and Joshua just woke up because that's her mother. So I have to give him a treat. But the thing is, is that dogs know when you really mean it, and you have to be, see, this is the thing. I had a client once, only once in all the time that I've done dog training, who said, I want to use only my voice to train my dog.

(00:49:13):
So I said, okay, well that means that you can't talk for nothing with you dog. You have to pick out so many things during a day that you liked that your dog did, and you have to verbally praise. And I said to him, it was a couple, a young couple that cut this golden. And I said, I want you to go through how is it going to sound when you tell your dog that they did the right thing? So they gave me a verbal marker for that. What are you going to do when the dog really did the right thing, and you're going to use it as reinforcement? It was far different than anything they said. It was very excited, and I'm not going to say it because all my dogs are going to wake up, but it was very high pitched, very, you are the best dog in the entire world, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

(00:50:02):
And you could tell they really meant it. And I will say this, when I was showing Austin, who is now 13 and a half, he had like six championships when I was showing him he loved food. He's a golden, he loved food. But I will tell you, every once in a while he had the best run. And I forget exactly, it might've been at Westminster or whatever, but it was the best thing in the entire world. And as much as he loved food, when I told him that he was the absolute best dog and how much I loved him, and I was just petting his beautiful face while I was saying it, he found that so much me reinforcing then a treat, right? So you can absolutely use verbal praise, but it has to be different, and it has to be heartfelt, and it's a lot of work. You think trying to find the right treat is a lot of work and trying to find the right treat delivery is a lot of work. Well, when you are thinking about how you can use changes in your voice tone to teach your dog that you're so excited about different behaviors because you use the same for behavior, that's exciting. You'd be exciting

(00:51:17):
For behaviors to come. You'd be what a good boy that's so great. Everything has to reflect the emotion that you're trying to achieve with massage, because I did have a fair number of dogs in reactive dog class that would only respond to massage. So what I would do is I would send their the clients home with instructions on a lot of petting, but petting in the areas that were pleasing to the dog. So for example, with Joshua, because his surgery was on his spine near his tail. So if he was that dog, I would say to my client, okay, I want you to pet him under the chin on the chest. I want you to do this for about five seconds. I want you to do hands off. And then I want you to see, does your dog want more of it?

(00:52:05):
If your dog wants more of it, you give more. And so depending on what kind of system they come up with, because each dog has a system. Some dogs like to be chest and shoulders, other dogs like side, other dogs curl up in your arms, other dogs lay flat. But depending on what system they came up with, then I would have the clients put a cue on it so that when they were in class and they came out for some exposures and then they went back behind. And I would also have them use a mat or something they could transport and use behind the barriers.

(00:52:41):
So then when they would work on it, they could have the dog lie down, give them the cue, and then the dog would be, dogs want predictable. They don't want unpredictability. Anxiety comes from the fear of the unknown. What's happening next? I don't know what's happening next. So when you take these dogs for whatever reason, they need predictability, they need structure. And I don't mean just they're eating at 10 in the morning and they're going out to pee at two in the afternoon. I'm talking about they need to know what needs to happen to get what they want, what needs to happen. Then when I go to this class and I'm exposed, I need something enjoyable. What is that something going to be? And that dog needs to choose it. But you can use all those things for reinforcement. But again, we have to listen to what the dog is telling us they want. And that's why when we stop massaging, we massage hands off, does the dog walk away? Now you're doing three seconds of massage and that's it.

(00:53:50):
Or does the dog take your arm and say, Hey, can I have more of that? So then that's the dog telling you, I really like that interaction. I will work for that interaction. And when you see that, and that's what I have with Joshua, then I put a cue onto it. So yes, you can absolutely use it, but we have to do things methodically. If you want real good behavior, if you want real behavior, I mean dogs are good. They're going to learn, even if you do things, just give them a treat. Give them a treat quickly. But you're not going to get what you're looking for necessarily, right? You're not going to get what you're looking for. And I know with me, I want my dogs on the same plane, whether they're this behavior that I'm asking them to do. If you would come into my, I got five dogs in here, you really wouldn't know. Although I will say, all these dogs have been raised with pauses. You want something? Sit with me for five to 10 seconds. Let's just, let me massage you. Let me look at you. Let me speak to you. Okay? Now you can go run and chase the squirrels outside,

(00:55:06):
But they're never allowed to catch them because I go out with them. The thing is, but the point is, is that if do that and you have this connection with your dog, you can give them what they want. Because I think if they could speak our language, if you came to my house, they'd say, oh, she's very well trained. We sit and stare into her eyes and say, love things and all this. She'll just do whatever we want. And it's like, you know what? You're absolutely right. I will.

Dianna L. Santos (00:55:37):
Yes,

Emma Parsons (00:55:38):
You're absolutely right. Because when I'm in an agility high competition, because I compete with the best of them, and when I'm doing obedience work, they always know they're connected. So as they grow and go through those awful, sometimes adolescent phases, I don't have as rough a time as I do as some of the clients that I see, because there never was that connection built in because no one in their classes taught them to give treats thoughtfully. So now we got to go back because you've dug this hole, now you've got to go back and fill it. Because a lot of those clients, I want to take my dog out with me on a dog walk. I want to take my dog out for ice cream. I want to take my dog into the store or on vacation. But because they're dogs now are they doing the behavior?

(00:56:26):
Some of them are, but they're doing them really fast. They're not unquote patient. They just want, they're just throwing behaviors. And the thing is, if their person is not responding, bark, bark, bark, bark. That becomes an accidental behavior chain. And again, thoughtful treat delivery can eliminate so much of that that doesn't convince you. I don't know what exactly. We all want that, right? We all do. I mean, that's what we want. We want the dog we can live with and we want the dog we can compete with, and we want the dog to compete with us at a high level. And we want it all because why wouldn't we? And you can have it. You can have it, but you have to think about your training sessions before you go. You have to think about what treat delivery work best. You have to videotape so you can look at it later without emotions. Tanya, you're looking at somebody else's video. I was this person's teacher. What would I change? Look at the result in the dog. What was that treat delivery. If I didn't do it properly, what other miscellaneous behavior now slid in there that I don't want? And if you can look at that early on, you're not digging any holes. You have to dig your way out.

Dianna L. Santos (00:57:53):
Sounds pretty good to me. I think

Emma Parsons (00:57:55):
I'm sold it all. It all comes together and you collect it. And what more do you want with your dog, right? I mean, is connection, right? We want to live with them peacefully. We want to live with them cooperatively. Nothing to do with, well, I'm the human and this is what I do. Who cares? Family members, and we have to empower them. Their dogs, they don't know how to get what they want, but if you teach them, they will understand. And the more thought you can put into it, the more thought they will put into it. And then it's just seamless.

Dianna L. Santos (00:58:33):
I think it's amazing. And again, I cannot emphasize enough just how excited I was in listening to that talk. I'm like, I have to talk to Emma about this.

Emma Parsons (00:58:42):
So glad. I'm so glad. It really makes a difference. And a lot of people, I know, my clients, they don't think about it, but it makes the biggest difference when you point it out and then you talk to them a little later and they say, oh my gosh, feeding my dog between my front paws. Oh my God, I've got a three minute Downst. Stay now.

Dianna L. Santos (00:59:00):
Yeah, it's absolutely amazing. And I think it just takes the training to a next level. It forces us to be a little more thoughtful, which is always a good thing. And it again, does indeed empower the dog. So I think it's absolutely fantastic. But I do want everyone to learn a little bit more about you as far as anything that you may have coming up, any talks or any events or anything else, please feel free plug away.

Emma Parsons (00:59:21):
Oh yeah. Well, there we go. So of course, I'm at Clicker Expo. I will be doing the live sessions actually with Joshua this time around. I'm doing a presentation on him, and then I'm going to show how I work with him in my living room, which I love. But yeah, so I'm at Clicker Expo live and then Clicker Expo in New York. This year I am teaching a click to come kindergarten, and that's going to have enrollment starting at the end of September. And what I'm excited about for this is that wouldn't it be cool if we could teach our puppies what we need them to know as adults?

(00:59:58):
Wouldn't it be cool if we could teach them the pauses when they're young? So instead of seeing a dog friend, they just don't pull you up to their dog friend and you go careening across the parking lot. Instead, they look and say, can I? And you say, yeah, let's go. I love that. I love the thought of why can we not teach them to capture things that they do, that they tolerate so that they can put that into their toolbox. For example, dogs coming up to them. I know, I don't know where you live, but in the city that I'm in, I always see that happening. And wouldn't it be cool if we could capture those things so that when it happened, not that it's natural, but in the city sometimes that is how it happens. Wouldn't it be nice if we could give them feedback about that?

(01:00:52):
And I got to tell you, click to come, right? The methodology. Wouldn't it be cool if we're walking by a flapping flag or a, I don't know, some garbage can rolling across the street and the dogs instead of freaking out, would go Look at that. I think I deserve a cookie. So that's what this course is going to be about is for puppies and young dogs to start teaching 'em these things before we actually need them. I'll be working on treat delivery and that, so all that. So that's coming up. And then, oh, may I always have things in the world I'm writing. The next thing that I want to do next year is write about X. I love agility and become quite competitive with it. Love it. But a lot of times, agility teams are not connected. So those are the dogs who know the skills, but when you go from obstacle to obstacle, they run away. They go visit the judge or they sniff the floor or something like this. So we've built these accidental behavior chains in our performances, and we do it with obedience. We do it with rally. We just do it. And so I want to write a book on that and have that an ebook so people could actually go into video to see how to do it correctly.

Dianna L. Santos (01:02:15):
That's very exciting.

Emma Parsons (01:02:17):
That's awesome. That's on my list. And then something about Joshua. Man, I just got to keep producing and never just keep doing what I can do. Just try to get all this information out here that I see that needs help, that I've learned from my own dogs and that people appreciate, right? They are issues in our

Dianna L. Santos (01:02:39):
Absolutely. I mean, we have been so incredibly fortunate. I personally have been incredibly fortunate in working with you, but all of the dog community has benefited greatly from your journey, how willing you have been to share, to continue your own learning and growth, and share that out with everyone else, and your enthusiasm and being a speaker for the dogs, but also being incredibly empathetic for the handlers that having those two together is rare. So again, we are so fortunate to have you, and thank you so very much for putting up with me all these years.

Emma Parsons (01:03:09):
Oh, you so much. I will say, this is the thing I've done a lot. Yes. But the thing is this, I am also a guardian. I have had these problems with my dogs. I still, I'm working with Joshua. We're on a husbandry now. I mean, I will say I live what I preach. I really do. And I will say having clients, they love it when I tell them what I've been through because it does give them hope. And I learned right along with all of you and everybody. I learn from my clients, I learn from my colleagues. But to me, if I can't share it, why learn it?

Dianna L. Santos (01:04:03):
Right?

Emma Parsons (01:04:04):
Because I want dogs to stay home.

Dianna L. Santos (01:04:07):
Yes.

Emma Parsons (01:04:08):
That's it. I want dogs to stay home. I don't want dogs to go shelters. I don't want dogs. I want dogs to really shine for their people and their people to shine for their dogs. Whether it's the dog who lives at home without big family. I want the dog to be socially acceptable if it's some of all of like us who compete. I want dogs to be able to do their best performances through cooperation and clarity and consistency. But if I learn these things and I can't share it, what's the point? Right? The point to me.

Dianna L. Santos (01:04:48):
But we all benefit from it.

Emma Parsons (01:04:50):
When you go to a workshop of mine, I'm going to put up videos where I screw crap up, not going to see, I have all these perfect videos. Of course I do. My dogs have won all these championships and I've competed and I'm going to nationals next month. I could show you all this great stuff, but you know what? You're not going to learn from it. Or you're going to learn, oh, well, she can do it because she's been doing this for how many years, but I can't. And you know what? That's crap. You. We all can. We are all trainers. We're all teachers more than trainers. We're teachers and we're educators for our dogs, and they teach us what they need, and we need to open our eyes and see what it is that they need, and we need to respond in kind.

Dianna L. Santos (01:05:37):
Absolutely. And again, this is why you have been such an amazing mentor to me, and I think it is such a wonderful gift to the community, is that level of humility, the honesty, which is very much needed, and also just being able to put forward the truth of what is actually happening. And so there aren't these unrealistic expectations on behalf of the clients where again, they do say the very things that you're talking about. Oh, well, I could never do that because I haven't been training dogs for 20 years. Or, well, that's what was supposed to look like, but mine doesn't. So then I guess I'm wrong, or My dog is wrong. But instead, if we can just connect on that human level, be like, no, actually, we're all just learning, like you said, from the dogs, then it just works out so much easier for everyone.

Emma Parsons (01:06:22):
He just stay without getting a head dip.

Dianna L. Santos (01:06:24):
Yeah,

Emma Parsons (01:06:27):
I did go back and correct that, by the way. But it's what? It's

Dianna L. Santos (01:06:31):
Yes,

Emma Parsons (01:06:32):
What it's right. I mean, it's a process. It's

Dianna L. Santos (01:06:37):
A fun process.

Emma Parsons (01:06:39):
It's a fun process. I mean, I love watching dogs though. The light bulb goes on and they're like, oh, that's what you wanted. I mean, it brings you so much joy, right? I mean, I love the process of training. I love competing, but it's the process of training and teaching that I am really hung with. And when I compete, I mean, I do well and I'm happy that I do well, but my thing when I go away, I step into the ring is what do I need to work on? I take the data, especially with my young dogs, but I take the data. What do I need to work on? And if it great and it feels good, well, there's nothing better than a nice run of agility when you're both connected and you don't even remember what happened during it. I'm like, what did I do?

(01:07:22):
Did I do a blind cross there? I better the video because I have no idea what I did. All I know is I didn't think until now when we cute, I'm happy. But yeah, no, there's nothing like it training. And hey, I remember when I loved Obedience is when I walked into the Cambridge Armory years and years ago. I walked in and I saw one line of dogs, all different breeds along the wall, all the people on the other side of the gym, and they called their dogs one by one. I never saw anything so beautiful in my life. I was smitten from that time on. I was smitten, and I'm like, I want a dog that does that. Look at that connection. Look at that relationship, right?

Dianna L. Santos (01:08:11):
Yes.

Emma Parsons (01:08:12):
Amazing. But relationships is built on trust.

Dianna L. Santos (01:08:15):
Absolutely. Yes.

Emma Parsons (01:08:16):
Right? Not just love, trust, love and trust. So we have to protect them. We have to teach them and educate them. That's how all that relationships gets built, and it's quite lovely. So yeah, I want people to do it. I'll do whatever I can to help people do it.

Dianna L. Santos (01:08:35):
Well, thank you so very much. This is an amazing conversation, but we can't wait to have you back and thank you for everything that you do. Again, I want to send a huge thank you to Emma for sitting down for this interview with me. When I heard her talking about treat delivery inside of the Aggressive Dogs Conference that she partook in, I was like, oh, I need to talk to her about this. So the more tools that we can have inside of our toolbox, and we can think about how we're using those tools when we're doing training of any variety, the better it is. I do look forward to having more conversations with fellow colleagues about a variety of topics. So definitely make certain you stay tuned for those. And we are also very excited to be hosting Emma for a webinar, focusing on her Click to Calm program. So we'll make sure that we have details for that inside of the show notes for this podcast, which will be posted on our website as well as our social media. But as always, if there's another individual that you're interested in me talking to, anything about Scent Work or dog training, please feel free to let me know. I want to talk to them. Thank you so very much for listening today. Please make certain that you give a cookie to your puppies for us. Happy training. We look forward to seeing you soon.