Ep. 133: Imposter Syndrome: Discussion with Teah Anders and Silke Wittig

Have you ever felt as though you were being smothered by a blanket of doubt when it comes to Scent Work? Are you second guessing every little thing you do, paralyzed with fear of making a mistake? Perhaps you are making excuses not to trial, go to class or even practice or train. As an instructor, do you feel your confidence absolutely shattered, concerned you will be found out to not know anything at all?

If this sounds familiar, there is a good likelihood you are suffering from imposter syndrome and you are not alone!

In this episode we are privileged to speak with Teah Anders and Silke Wittig, Certified Mental Management Coaches, about this crucial topic, how imposter syndrome manifests within the Scent Work community, tips for handlers, competitors and instructors and so much more.

Looking to learn more? Check out these resources:

Silke Wittig is offering a live webinar through Scent Work University you definitely want to check out, Nerves Poisoning the Fun Webinar.

Additionally, Silke offers virtual consultations and coaching throug her business, HeRo Canine Consulting.

Teah Anders offers online and in-person Mental Management seminars and coaching through her site noseworkmind.com.

Speakers:

• Dianna L. Santos
• Teah Anders
• Silke Wittig

TRANSCRIPT

Dianna L. Santos (00:00):
Welcome to the All About Scent Work Podcast. In this podcast we talk about all things Scent Work, that includes training tips, a behind scenes look at what your instructor or trial official is going through a much more. In this episode, we're going to be talking about imposter syndrome. So before I start diving into the episode itself, let me do a very quick introduction of myself. My name is Dianna Santos. I'm the Owner and Lead Instructor of Scent Work University. This is an online dog training platform where we provide online courses, seminars, webinars, and eBooks that are all centered around Scent Work. So regardless of where you are in your sniffing journey, you're just getting started, you're looking to develop some more advanced skills, you're interested in trialing, even at the upper levels, we likely have a training solution for you. So now that you know a little bit more about me, let's dive into the episode itself. So this episode, I have the privilege of having a conversation with Silke Wittig and Teah Anders all about imposter syndrome as it pertains to Scent Work. Let's have a listen to that conversation. So we are delighted to have two wonderful speakers today. You don't just have to listen to me. Aren't you so excited? So we're going to be introducing them first. So Silke, do you just want to tell us a little bit about yourself before I start diving in?

Silke Wittig (01:10):
Sure. So my name is Silke Wittig. I live in Brownsville, Oregon. Now I've traveled to the US quite a bit, but I'm loving Oregon. I am a Certified Nose Work Instructor and I became a Certified Nose Work Instructor in 2011. And I'm also a supervising CO and a trial judge for NACSW. I currently just have one dog, he's 10 years old. Snap, who is an Elite, and I'm a Certified Mental Management Coach, obviously.

Dianna L. Santos (01:40):
Perfect. Yes, very good stuff, particularly for this particular topic. And Ms. Teahm do you want to just tell us a little bit about yourself please?

Teah Anders (01:47):
Sure. My name is Teah Anders and I live in the central coast of California. Let's see, I've been teaching Nose Work since 2009 and still teach classes in it and really enjoy that. I am a certifying official for NACSW and a judge, and I've been a Mental Management Coach with Mental Management System since 2013. I have three dogs. Shammy is the dog I was running in Elite, she's now retired and Reacher is the dog that I'm running. We're in NW3, we're in the lovely NW3 journey.

Dianna L. Santos (02:28):
Well, I really do appreciate you both joining us for this conversation today. And what we're trying to wrap our heads around is this whole idea of imposter syndrome. The first thing I just want to make sure is that everyone's on the same page. What is it that you both consider imposter syndrome to be and also how can it relate to Nose Work? So we'll start with Teah, then we'll go over to Silke.

Teah Anders (02:52):
Okay. Well just for fun, we looked it up on AI to see what AI would say, and their definition is individuals doubt their accomplishments and have a persistent internalized fear of being exposed as a fraud despite evidence of their competence. And to tell you the truth, one of the things I didn't say in my intro is I owned a dog training facility for 21 years prior to, I just sold it in 2021 and worked for the company. And so I've been around dog people and dog sports for a long time. And even before I heard the word for it, I just realized just from my life and corporate life and everything else that there's a lot of situations where it's obvious that people aren't trusting in their own knowing their own education and they're feeling less than. So it's that kind of thing where you get up to do something and people are having a lot of self-talk going on that's negative and that's what we really call an imposter syndrome. People just are feeling like they're not good enough. What do you want to add to that definition? Silke?

Silke Wittig (04:04):
Absolutely agree. And Teah, I have a dog training and behavioral consulting business since 2006. I only specialize in Nose Work and mental management now. But when I started for sure, I was like, wow, people are going to pay me money to do this. Do I even know what I'm doing? And I think with more and more experience, you feel like you can actually share the information that you have and inform help people. But I think especially initially when you're starting, whether you're a new CO or a new trial judge or even a new Certified Nose Work Instructor who's just beginning to teach, I think that's a biggie that people are struggling with the imposter syndrome for sure.

Dianna L. Santos (04:48):
So are you guys also seeing this on the handler side where maybe I'm sure a lot of people in the very beginning like, oh, so this might be something that beginners go through, but also when someone may have a new dog or they're going up into a new level or they're trying to compete with a new venue or maybe their dog, something else has changed or now they's something new, are you noticing this bubble up when there's a newness to what someone may be going through?

Silke Wittig (05:14):
Oh, for sure, for sure. I think when you first start Nose Work, you have absolutely no idea what you're doing. I don't think imposter syndrome even comes up, but as you said, as you climb up the ladder in trials, so even when you have maybe one dog that you work with initially who was just an amazing dog, I mean you climbed the ladder to Summit in three years, let's just say probably a little bit longer, and then you get another dog and suddenly you're struggling for sure, you're going to be asking yourself, well maybe I didn't know as much as I thought I did and it was actually the dog who carried me through. So I think it's definitely a problem with handlers and then getting stuck in NW3. I think that's probably the moment where imposter syndrome I think really creeps up because we are all struggling with NW3. Getting out of that NW3 quagmire and NW2 you pass, you think you know it all. And NW3 is really not that much harder, but it's the mental game for the handler. And I think that's the biggest thing there where pho syndrome comes up.

Teah Anders (06:21):
That's when I feel like I see it in a major way. A lot of times people will come in as students and they're like, Hey, I'm just here to give my border college something to do and I just want to have fun. I just want to learn it. And then as they're in class and they learn about competition, they stick their toe in and they get their ORT and they're like, oh my gosh, that was awesome. That was really fun. Then they do something again. Or also people that have come from another sport and they may have been a real expert or very, very, they did confirmation showing or agility or flyball, whatever it was. And then they come into Nose Work and at first they're new and they're like, wow, this is totally different. And they're not making any judgements on themselves. And then all of a sudden as they begin to stick their toe in, like Ilka said, it's not always this way, but most of the time, getting through one and two is doable.

(07:13):
If you can get into some trials and you move through that and then all of a sudden people get into NW3 where there's more unknowns and like Silke said, it becomes more of a mental game then. And that's where I start seeing my students go, maybe I'm not as good as I thought I was. Or that's also where people are starting to play the comparison game. They thought they were doing just fine and then they went to a trial and they saw their colleague over here that had been a Nose Work a year less than them maybe titled or got a ribbon or whatever it is. And then that whole comparison game comes in. And that is something that I think really contributes to the whole imposter syndrome. It's like once you start judging yourself and comparing yourself to others and feeling like you're less than, then you start thinking, Hey, maybe I'm not qualified to be here. Maybe I shouldn't even be doing this sport. I mean, those are the thoughts that go through people's minds, I think.

Dianna L. Santos (08:19):
And I think that leads in really nicely to the next thing that I had as far as how is it that people may be able to better identify whether or not they're going through this. So some of the things that you were mentioning Teah, as far as obviously the negative self-talk, the doubt, and then they start retracting. So are there things that you've seen as an instructor with your clients as they're going through maybe through NW2 and NW3 even just as they're going to class that you're like, Ooh, maybe we're struggling a little bit with this.

Teah Anders (08:47):
I've definitely seen it. How about you Silke?

Silke Wittig (08:51):
I mean for sure. Both Teah and I were also handlers, and I think that was actually the biggest issue for me as a handler and instructor that I was suffering from impostor syndrome. And that's why actually went to Teah and said like, Hey, I have a problem here. I'm not enjoying trials. I avoid trials. I have to. And because I put so much pressure on myself and I compare myself to others, I'm not even enjoying the training anymore. I don't want to do blind hides because hey, I'm a control freak. And I think Dianna, you can probably identify with that. I mean, I want to look good in front of my students. I want to look good in front of myself. So definitely probably withdrawing a little bit from training, from trialing, not even wanting to talk to other people about what you're going through.

(09:43):
Because again, you want to feel you're in control. And I think the biggest thing is your self-worth is so connected and so often attached to the results in the trial to the outcome, Hey, I'm not worthy if I don't pass my NW1 in the first goal. I am not worthy if I am still after 20 trials, I'm still stuck in NW3. And I think that's the biggie. And rather than looking at it while I'm getting more experience and hopefully I can figure out where are my areas where I need to learn more and maybe make some changes, we just get stuck in a rut and our self-worth goes downhill from there.

Teah Anders (10:25):
And I think it's a downward spiral.

(10:28):
It's like that's also why I ended up with Lanny and learning mental management because when I started out with my dog Salsa, my very first Nose Work dog, I mean she, I never quite accomplished her being more interested in target odor than lizards. I never quite got there with her in the beginning and she didn't really enjoy sitting in a crate all day. So I would go to a trial and she would be getting more and more antsy and I'd be looking around mean everybody's like, this is the greatest thing. And I'd be thinking, I'm actually not having that good of a time. And that's where I came in. I wouldn't say I felt like, Hey, I can't do this or I'm not qualified, but I felt like this is not fun. So I think that's kind of your first, it's supposed to be something we're doing for fun, for enrichment of ourselves and our dogs.

(11:24):
And if it's really not fun, then there's something going on. Not like every minute of it, every day is going to be a blast, but overall, actually looking forward to that trial experience. So I think if you're finding that and then you're finding, I remember driving home from some of my very first trials from Northern California thinking, oh my gosh, that was not fun. I don't know if I want to do this again. And that's where I really went to Lanny and started taking a look at, well, what about my mental attitude? What can I change there that's going to help me to feel better? Because I think that at the base of human nature in so many things, it's certainly not just Nose Work. It could be your job or anything else where people feel like I'm just not good enough, I'm just not good enough.

(12:21):
And we all have that inner critic we do, and we have to learn to tame that because it's something that can just kind be sitting on your shoulder talking to you. It's like, oh, how did you blow that with a blurt Alert? Why did you do that? Why didn't you cover the search area? There's all kinds of criticism and we're often, we can be our worst critic. We're not always our worst critic, but we can be our worst critic. And when you start to feel that where your negative self-talk is going on all the time, it is time to take a deep breath and think, okay, what's going on for me right here?

Dianna L. Santos (13:00):
So in particular with Nose Work, are there some certain types of thought processes or processes that you would think that clients would go through or things that they say such as, I have such a hard time reading my dog, or I can't believe that I didn't see that everyone else could see it. The volunteers were like, why didn't you call that? And I didn't call it, are there certain things that you're noticing as far as how people talk about with you as an instructor or just in the community and you're like, Ooh, I think you're getting a little close to that edge. Let's back up a little bit.

Silke Wittig (13:33):
So in mental management, there are two things that you have to be mindful of, which is one is the conscious. It's basically what you think about. And the other one is the self-image. And that is it's like you to do something you label yourself. So for example, like I always flunk containers, I suck, I always suck, right? With the conscious mind, it's more what you're thinking maybe before a search like, oh my God, it's the last container search of the day, it's the last search. I'm tired. I don't think we can make it. Or maybe somebody comes out of the search and say like, boy, that was a hard container search and that really affects what you're thinking. So it's the combination of the conscious mind and the self-image that I think really affects your performance for sure.

Teah Anders (14:28):
And I think the other piece is that I think it's partially just societal these days. Everybody wants, they'd like everybody to get the trophy. Everybody is having a good easy time. Although learning takes place actually through mistakes. That's really how learning takes place When you do something in a trial that you stumble over and you realize, oh, I wish I wouldn't have done that. If you can just turn that around to say, wow, now I realized that I wasn't focused and calm when I went in and I was really jumping the gun. That's why I gave that blurt Alert the second I walked in the door and my dog put his nose on anything, in retrospect, we can look back and go, gosh, if I'd have just waited three seconds, I'd have had that one, right? So I think we just have to begin to learn that it's a journey.

(15:23):
It's a part of a process. If we're always outcome oriented about what am I going get out of today? Am I going to get a ribbon or a title? What we teach in mental management is more about learning to be just process oriented. What are the goals that you can have for the trial? Like having really good synchronicity with your dog or really being able to read when they're an odor or just have your dog relaxed, you and your dog relaxed and truly enjoy the moment, whatever it might be that you're looking for. When we can focus more on that, it helps to take our mind off thinking about the future. And it just so happens when we're thinking too much, that's one of the sure ways to impact our performance negatively. So the more we over try, the harder it is for us to really be able to be the best we can be as a handler.

Dianna L. Santos (16:22):
And people are like, oh, now you don't want me to think, but all I do is overthink. And I do know that some of our professional colleagues, so let's say instructors as an example, are listening to this and going, but I don't know you two, I think that when I'm working with clients that outcome is some way that I'm able to tell whether or not I'm teaching my clients well. So I then get stuck in this downward spiral where I've been working with clients and they're going forth and they're going to trials or whatever, and they may or may not be trialing, and I'm using that outcome to determine whether or not I'm good. And then if they don't do well, then clearly I'm bad and then I shouldn't be and should retire and I should never have been involved with dogs and I should just go stock paper towels or something. So can you talk a little bit about from the professional instructor standpoint, I know that I suffer from this.

Teah Anders (17:16):
I think anybody who's done dog training in their life has some of this going on. It's not all about dog sports. Some of it's just about teaching manners. And the one thing I learned in many years of teaching pet dog classes where people aren't even competing for anything is you have no control over compliance by the person who's learning from you. All we can really do is be our very best, put the information out there, hopefully identify some ways we can support someone while they're struggling along the way. Although just like everything else in life, we can't make 'em do it. And the other piece is this imposter syndrome or whatever you want to call it. It's not all a metal game. It is partially definitely a big part of it's mental, but you know what? We still have to have the skills. You can sit and think and visualize as long as you want, and then you realize, oh, I've got some deficiencies in my skills here.

(18:17):
So that's why when we do what we call the reload after a trial or after an event, look back and say, what did I learn? And if you realize what did I learn then how can I improve it? And I apply that with my students too. If I've got some students that are really, really struggling rather than going to, wow, I must not be a good instructor, I look at, okay, where are the holes either in their training or in their mental game or are they getting any other support? Maybe they need a little bit more support than another client does. So then to outline what can I actually do? And to remind people that a part of this, we've got the conscious thats mentioned. We've got the self-image, but we also have the subconscious skills, and those are the skills that we've learned good enough, really good enough through repetition and practice that we don't have to think about it anymore.

(19:13):
And I know I've trained a lot of instructors for regular dog training, teaching manners and family dogs. And the one thing every instructor always said to me is, what if somebody asked me a question that I can't answer? So everybody's got that. Oh my gosh. And I always said, you tell them that in your opinion, this is what you're thinking or you don't have the answer to that right now and you'll go back and do research and get back to them. So we've got to build those skills, the actual skills of doing whatever we're doing as well as building up our medal game and being positive and looking for the best.

Silke Wittig (19:57):
Like Teah said, we can't control our students in trials. Our students might do superbly well in training, but then you might tell them you're not ready yet to compete. And they still go and then somebody says like, oh my god, that's Diana's student or tier student circus. What the heck are they doing here? You can't control them for sure. And outcome is not just about how they perform. If they get first place, second place, third place, what kind of attitude did they go into the trial with? What kind of attitude are they coming out of the trial are to their dogs? Are they supportive of the other people in the parking lot? Are they coming back with like, oh, I did learn I need to do this more. I need to practice this. Even though it may not look like as an instructor that you're doing so great with your students, they're actually doing amazingly well.

(20:55):
It's just that people have a different idea of what is a good result and what isn't. I think if your students are happy to be with you, if they love your classes, if they are potentially confident to go to a trial and they have your support, if they're willing to come back to you and say like, Hey, Dianna, I need some help here that for me tells you you're an amazing instructor, or whatever everybody else says. And I think one of the things that when I was doing learning mental management from her, I was like, what other people think of me is none of my business? And I mean, I was like, my God, I never thought of it that way. So if your students love you, if they're having a great time at trials, if they have a great time in training, they're supportive. Everybody else, I think that's the biggest win that you can have as an instructor.

Teah Anders (21:46):
I agree. It's about the enjoyment of the actual sport.

Dianna L. Santos (21:51):
So building off of that a little bit is instructors are in a interesting spot because many of them also are students or they're also competitors. So they're wearing all these hats. And that's where I think a lot of us struggle because it's like, okay, I kind of understand what you just said and maybe I'm able to do that, but then I have to go out and I have to perform and now I'm being out there with a spotlight on me. And it's not just reflecting on me personally as a dog owner is now reflecting on me as a trainer to be able to actually produce a dog that I live with that can do the things, whether it's the title or whether it's they're joyful or whatever it may be. And now all of a sudden there's all these things you have to try to do and do well, and it's just like the pressure is just overwhelming. So can you talk a little bit about what that struggle could be and some tips or things you may have for instructors who may find themselves in that situation?

Teah Anders (22:49):
It's a biggie. Silke, I'll follow you.

Silke Wittig (22:52):
Okay. So I think first of all, nobody has to trial. Okay? This is not a must that hey, you come to my classes and you must try, right? I mean, I did behavior for a long time and I know Teah did, and Dianna maybe you did as well. I had a lot of students who never competed and they had no interest in competing and nor did the dogs lend themselves to competition, but they were amazing, amazing, amazing teams. So just something to think about, right? You don't have to put yourself out there as an instructor, when I went to trials initially, I always felt yes, I had to be present. Some of some people would come up to me even during the trial, Hey Silke, I have this exterior coming up. Should I use a 50 foot leash or a 10 foot leash? And what about this?

(23:39):
I just came out of this and I always felt the need that I needed to be there for them in the process. I wasn't there for my dog. So I was kind of multitasking until I kind of realized what, when I go to a trial, it's basically just me and my dog. So if somebody comes up to me, I'm just like, sorry, I can't talk to you right now. I'm a competitor. I'm kind of focusing on my dog and I'm happy to talk to you after the trial, or you can contact me after the trial and you've really got to let that go. And most people will actually be fine with that. I mean, they're just trying to be nice and chat and they just don't realize, hey, you're not there as a role as an instructor. Oftentimes also we instructors, we have dogs that are a little bit more complicated.

(24:24):
There are people out there just like for agility and any other dog sports, they pick their dogs specifically for that sport. I mean, we see a lot of field labs now, mouse, the Springers, working cockers, that kind of stuff. So we often don't necessarily have the dogs that can already have that drive and already environmentally sound. So that's something we have to consider as well, that we have to put a lot of work. And plus, we are always teaching. We oftentimes do not get the good instruction that we need. And that's, I think hard. So finding other instructors, finding a support group, going to workshops with other instructors, I think that's a biggie. If you have anybody in your area, people that you can trust and you can talk with and they can set hides for you and build coaches through, I think that's one of the biggest things that you can do as an instructor.

Teah Anders (25:21):
A lot of it comes down to the skill building I was talking about, and I know I've had this happen to me, and I certainly know lots of instructors that have, it's like because you're so busy teaching classes and coing trials, judging trials, you haven't taken the time you need to take to work with your own dog. And then you go out and you feel very under the microscope and you're realizing, geez, I need to take some of my own advice as an instructor. And like Silke said, if you can line up with someone where you can get some instruction, you can get some guidance and put that into it. And really, I think this is one place that I think mental management is so helpful. However, I talk about mental management in the actual way that we teach it from mental management systems, but even in a general way, if you can control your thoughts and keep them positive and your attitude up during a trial and you can honestly believe what we said about what you think of me as none of my business, I also call it the goo, the good opinion of others.

(26:30):
If you can put that out of your mind and just do what you're doing in the moment, I think that's what's helped me the most because if I'm running my mental programs and I'm controlling my thoughts, then I don't really, and I'm managing to practice with my dog and actually feel qualified when I get out there, then I don't have time to really think about it when I go to trial. It doesn't enter into the same way it did in initially because I will never forget when I first learned Nose Work, there was another instructor here, she wasn't a Nose Work instructor, we were both training people to work with their dogs. And I went into the Humane Society and I did a bunch of training programs for positive training, and then she went in right after me and did negative. So we just had a difference of opinion.

(27:22):
And one of my very first trials, I drive all the way down to LA and I look over and who's the timer? It's her. And I remember thinking, oh no, she's going to watch me. And I started getting into that and that's before I had really applied mental management fully to Nose Work. And I know it was a tough trial for me. And I mean in truth, she was a nice enough woman. I don't think she was even thinking about me that much, but I made it up that she was. And we just have to learn to get over that and control her own thoughts. And also rather than being our own best critic, we have to learn to pat ourselves on the back and not in the way of bragging or being ridiculous about something, but recognizing the things that we did well in the trial.

(28:12):
And when we really start to focus on those, and you are always going to have someone as an instructor when you come back to class, well, what happened to you out there in containers? People are going to say that. And I've just learned to say, well, here's what I learned. I learned this. And then I'll often say, what did go well? We aced all the other elements and I feel really good about how we did, and I learned that we need to get a stronger Alert on containers. And then they kind of go, oh, okay. Because it's like you learn something which is going to help you for every trial after that, which while it feels great to come out and say, oh, everything went perfect. And I titled, we don't always learn as much that way as when we realize, oh, there's a hole in my training. Because inevitably those things show up sooner or later.

Silke Wittig (29:08):
Nose Work is a rollercoaster, right? I mean one trial you can be on top first place placements everywhere, and then the next trial you go to don't keep your points. So it's not like any other dog sport agility or you either hit the contacts or not obedience. So it depends on the day, it depends on the environment, it depends on the height placements, it depends on how you feel on that day or your dog. Are they hides in favor of your dog or not? So it's very different, but I think as an instructor, when we go to a trial, yes we are there as a competitor, but we also want to be role models for our students there. So the way how you go into a search, how you come out of the search, do you come out of the search, that's your sap that hides up that little, your students will pick up on that and they will model you on that. So how do you deal, like Tia already said, how do you deal with these kind of situations like, Hey, I learned something here. Hey, we did well here. I learned something. And kind of giving that to your students that they can apply that and become better handlers in that way I think is a huge, huge deal.

Dianna L. Santos (30:20):
That's awesome stuff. And I think just to build off of that a little bit, can you talk a little bit more about as instructors working with other instructors, I think the key part that you said there that you trust because very possible, even if it's someone who's not doing anything maliciously, but if they are constantly pulling upon those threads of doubt that it can make the matter a little bit worse. So can you talk a little bit about working with your fellow colleagues and how that can also model for your clients the importance of learning from others?

Silke Wittig (30:49):
So I think you have to learn to be vulnerable, and that's not something that society necessarily encourages. I think we hear more about vulnerability nowadays, but it's not something because again, as an instructor, I should know everything. So actually getting in touch with other instructors and saying like, Hey, can I come to your classes? Or Hey, can we get together for practice? It takes guts, it takes courage. Obviously I was in Pennsylvania when I first learned about Nose Work and then I was in Georgia and now I'm here. And actually one of the first things that I did whenever I moved, I said, you know what? I'm going to get in touch with local instructors and see if they want to get together. And some people said they have absolutely no interest, they have no interest in becoming a part of a group. They have no interest in even letting me into the classes.

(31:43):
And I'm absolutely fine with that. But there's usually some that are like, oh my god, thank God somebody else, another instructor is willing to get together and practice because we're all in the same boat. And so I think that's a biggie and it's always worked out really, really well. These instructor practices. And again, you have to be vulnerable and you have to be, again, you have to be the role model. You have to make the first move. The problem is oftentimes, and I have that problem sometimes I am not the best at taking advice from other instructors, but I'm learning it's a work in progress, but there's a lot of good information. Even if I might not apply it in this moment in time, just like in regular classes, it's another tool in my toolbox. And getting a different set of eyes, experienced eyes on me and my is just very, very helpful.

(32:41):
And it could be the same cos fellow cos fellow judges, fellow instructors, I think that's probably the best way. I did try. Sometimes I try getting together with students, but the problem is they're oftentimes they just defer back to you. They don't coach you really, and it ends up being a coaching session for them rather than a coaching session for me. So I found that actually working with other instructors is the best way. And then you start networking more and you pass students onto each other. And then you also, because you get to know the instructors, you can also say, Hey, this student would be a great idea. Go and practice with this instructor, go and practice with this instructor. So you get to know them better and how they teach and what they teach. And that's actually really beneficial for our students as well.

Teah Anders (33:29):
Yeah, I think vulnerability there is a very important key. It's a little uncomfortable. It's kind of like you're in fourth grade and you're asking, would you be my friend? It's odd. You have to put yourself out there to actually initiate something without taking it personally if other people aren't interested or don't want to do it. Because sometimes people will be intimidated by you and they don't want to train you. They feel you're not going to be open. And sometimes people think they know everything and they kind of want you to go my way or the highway. So I think we always have to assess as instructors when we're asking for instruction. The main thing I look at is how do I feel after the interaction? Do I feel good about myself and about my training, were they kind and informational in their imparting of information or were they actually not?

(34:28):
Because I have some clients that I've talked to through the years, people move around now so much someone moves from Timbuk two to my area, or I'll talk with someone in a mental management session and they're like, I'm just like the person is just depressed after their training session. And I always tell 'em, well, I can take information from anybody, even if I don't really like them or agree with everything they do. Often there's one nugget of information I can take away, but overall, if I don't feel good about that interaction, then perhaps that person, I just don't jive on our communication thing. And the other thing that's so nice now is the ability to reach out to instructors around the country. There are a number of people who do the online training and can go over something with you if you're having an issue.

(35:28):
So that's another place to find help as an instructor. I don't think it's just instructors. I think certifying officials, judges, hosts and handlers, I think everyone has their moments where they're like, do I know enough to do this? And the problem with it is it brings in such indecisiveness because you start questioning everything that your gut tells you, this would be a good thing to do, this is something I'm going to do. And then if you're getting in that place of imposter syndrome, you start questioning things. And one thing that doesn't help people to be a more effective anything is being indecisive. And I say, go with what you think you're best knowing at the time, and if you make a mistake, own it and learn from it, but move through it. Because otherwise, I mean I see that in trials sometimes when I'm coing or judging and I'm watching some really good handlers, some amazing teams, and they're not believing their dog. I mean just not, they want their dog to go back five times and I'm like, wow, what's going on there for that person to feel that way? And it may be because they're outcome focused or maybe they're just having a moment where they just cannot be decisive, they can't make the call.

Silke Wittig (37:00):
That's a baggage. Oftentimes it's a lot of baggage, right,

Teah Anders (37:03):
From something that happened. It's a search before or the trial before, and we've got to learn to let go of that stuff so that we come in clean.

Silke Wittig (37:13):
So what I like about canine Nose Work and as being as an instructor, the instructors actually do have a Facebook group. It's an instructor only Facebook group, so they can ask questions there. We also have a mentorship program, and if you are A CO, we also have, and the CSW has a supervising CO program as well. So I work with new COs. It could be in person or it could be on the text string and exactly what T was saying, sometimes the cos like, oh, I don't know. I don't know. And I tell 'em, look, you went through this very extensive program. First of all, you had to fill in an application form, you had to get accepted into the program, and then you had to attend the courses and then you have to send in videos and oh my God, everything else, and said, you deserve to be here. You are here for a reason and trust your gut. It's like trust your gut this, you've got this. And I think that just makes people just take a big breath and yeah, you know what? I can do it. But it's that getting that initial self doubt and saying like, oh, you're here for a reason. You can do it. And getting that affirmation from somebody else. I think people are just so relieved when they hear that. And I think that just carries through for future trials as well.

Dianna L. Santos (38:31):
So I think it's really impressive the things that you're touching upon because it's all very true. And again, I really am interested in this topic because I am the poster child for all of this. I have said for many years, oh, I just need to retire and can't even have dogs and just forget me. I'll just go sit in a hole and dive. Just terrible. So I wanted to dive into a little bit deeper about why that may happen and is there something specific specifically for dogs? Is there something with the relationship between handlers and dogs that elicit this a little bit more specifically with Nose Work? Because we cannot see the odor. This isn't as simple as not simple, but it's not as straightforward as agility or obedience or flyball or anything else where I can see the thing that I'm trying to accomplish with odor.

(39:21):
I can't see odor. So even when I set a hide and my dog then is struggling in training, oh my God, I just broke my dog because I put a hide out that they were never going to be able to find. Or if you're an instructor, you put out a hide and no one's finding like, oh my God, I just brought the entire class. Or if you were a trial official and no one's finding the hide, but the dog a white did what happened? All this stuff. So can you guys talk about these things as far as what specifically maybe to just working with dogs, but also the added complexity of Nose Work that we are dealing with this weird medium that we cannot see.

Teah Anders (39:54):
That's why I think Nose Work is very much once you get to level NW3 and above, a mental game becomes much, much more important because of that very thing. There are so many variables with Nose Work and so many unknowns and outside of set sports, all the other sports have to do with training a behavior, giving a cue, and like you said, getting your dog to do it. So it's a whole different ball game than where we're actually in a way taking our cues from the dog to support them and to let them lead. So the one thing it does take is we have to, that's why letting go of the outcome can be so important because it takes some of the pressure off immediately because we can't control everything the dog is going to do on that particular day. We really can't. And we can certainly not control what's going to happen at the trial, whether we're a CO or a handler or the instructor or whatever, because I've just seen so many trials where the first 15 dogs just came out and man, they just rocked it.

(41:15):
And then whether it's the wind shifted or the cat showed up or the squirrel showed up and the trees, whatever it was, here are the people that just plain pure luck of timing, they come out and their run doesn't go as well. And so part of it is just really being willing to, I think, give up perfectionism really that idea of, one of the things Lanny always said, mental management is that procrastination is a purest form of perfectionism. And it's like when we find ourself with anything in life where we just can't get it done, it's often because we are fearful that the outcome won't be perfect. And yet if we can let go of that and just start moving forward in the moment step-by-step, what we can control or respond to, then it frees up some of that trying to control it all. And we can't control a dog.

(42:18):
I mean not a hundred percent. We can control our response to the dog. So if we're in a good place, clear, focused, and thinking about what we're doing in the moment, very often when the dogs say gets caught in trapping odor, we can more readily recognize that and we can do whatever we need to do in the moment, whether it's step in, step back, get 'em out of the odor cone, go back in from another direction, go back the start line and start over. Whatever we decide to do, it's like the wisdom is more there for us. But if we're very hung up on doing it perfect, you're only as strong as a weakest member of your team and very often that weakest member as us.

Silke Wittig (43:05):
And I think Thinkt brings up a really good point. It's wanting to be perfectionist. And if you do that in Nose Work, it's going to bite you in the butt in multiple ways. And again, that was one of my problems right before I started mental management. And once I let that go and I became more curious and I didn't let the pressure affect me as much Lenny talks about pressure is an amplifier and pressure can either be anxiety and fear and then you kind of coil back in yourself and you just don't want to do anything or you get pressure is like excitement. And that's where I am now is that excitement like, whoa, let's see what happens. Let's be creative in my height placement, let's experiment, let's be creative. And I think that's just opened up a whole new world, both in trials as well as in when I train the people.

(44:01):
Because if I see something in the trial, it's like, oh wow, this is interesting. And like Tia said, well, let me do this and maybe come back to it or try a different angle or whatever. I'm much more willing to experiment than if I'm like, oh my God, my dog is there and I'm just going to watch it frozen in fear that I might make the wrong decision. So again, seeing pressure as excitement, seeing like, wow, I don't know what happened or I don't know what's going to happen and that's okay, we can analyze maybe afterwards or let's try something else and take it from there. And you become a better handler, you become a better instructor, you become a better CO and better judge as well.

Dianna L. Santos (44:42):
That's awesome. So what are some of the things you think as a community that we may be able to do in order to lessen what we're seeing for imposter syndrome? Obviously people should learn more about mental management, so if you guys want to talk about that and some of the resources that you may offer. But in addition to that, are there different things that we can do as far as potentially setting expectations or the kinds of conversations we're having, the kinds of events that we're doing, the different people, the handlers, the instructors, the trial officials, the trial hosts. What are some tangible things we can all do to just reduce the prevalence of imposter syndrome, if that's even possible?

Silke Wittig (45:16):
I think the biggest thing is be kind to each other. Acknowledge we're all human, we all make mistakes and we all learn together and we have to acknowledge that it's real. It's not just, you can't just make it go away. It is something right if you are not having a good time and I tell you, oh, just have fun. It's hollow, right? I think building the teams that they go in, feeling confident, like I said earlier, hey, you deserve to be here, you deserve. And I think for me was one of the biggest affirmations or trigger phrases that I use, I deserve to be here. And because it changes my whole attitude. The biggest thing is again, we're all in the same boat. Be nice to each other and support each other be a role model for everybody else.

Teah Anders (46:05):
Well, I agree with that. I mean I really think you've covered it to a large degree. I think if one of our students or ourselves are having those feelings, I think we need to acknowledge it. Glossing over feelings or emotions doesn't make them go away. We have to be aware, Hey, I'm having an issue here. I'm just not having a whole lot of fun. And I'm feeling like when I go out there to trial, I feel like I'm not really qualified or whatever it is. And let your students state it and then to be kind like Soka said, that's so important not to minimize people's feelings and not to just brush it off. That's no big deal. And then I think really as instructors, whether we're training people to do Nose Work or even the people who were training us to be cos and judges and all those other things, you have to have the instruction, the information, the good instruction so to speak, because you can't just go anywhere and learn anything.

(47:17):
And if it's not very valid or very helpful, it doesn't really improve your skills over time. You know what I mean? So I think we have to help each other. And I've had times where I've had clients that for whatever reason, I'm not speaking to their listening. I don't know why. I think I'm saying it quite clearly, but they're not hearing me. And I've actually had a few clients where I've said, maybe you go over there and check out what you hear from her over there or him. Maybe this person's going to speak more to your listening and it's going to make more sense to you. You always welcome back, but if I'm not doing it for you, the way I explain things. And then the other thing is like Soka said, if you can get rid of some of the pressure to where you're so concerned about what the end of the day of the trial's going to look like, whether you have a ribbon or a placement or you can start to shift your belief in what you've learned being important, that takes so much of the pressure off that you can begin to be more exploratory, more creative, and own the fact that you think, well, I thought I'd give it a shot and it didn't work.

(48:35):
That was, in hindsight, not my best decision that day, but in the moment it seemed like something I ought to do. Okay, I'm probably not going to do that particular thing again in that circumstance. But then I've eliminated one thing. I know that next time that happens, that one's not going to work if you're not. So if you can free yourself up, really, and it's hard just like when people say have fun, just relax. You're like, I'm not feeling relaxed, I'm not having fun. Or people just say, it's just a game. That's another way to put it. But it doesn't feel like that in the moment. So I think we have to acknowledge what people are going through and also take in the uniqueness of this sport because you can have dogs and you can have sports where you can drill and drill and drill and Q and Q and Q with the right dog and the right sport, and you'll talk to people that are high up and things and they're like, oh yeah, I train six hours of whatever and my dog does it. And yeah, it looks perfect out there, but for me, my dog is a big part of my life. And Nose Work is a big part of it, but it's sure not everything. So if you can put it in perspective, put it in perspective more than anything because it really ought to be enjoyable.

Silke Wittig (50:02):
I think we just have to remember why we got into the sport, into the activity in the first place. It was something to do with our dogs and being in awe of our dogs and letting them sniff and seeing the dogs being so happy to actually finally be allowed to do what they're good at. And that's oftentimes something I'll try and remember too, because again, I love the activity of Nose Work. Sports is not for everybody. Competition is not for everybody. But you have to come back to like, Hey, why are we doing this? And it's so much fun to do it together with our dogs.

Teah Anders (50:37):
And I think also being realistic about yourself and your dog, if you in fact do have dogs with behavioral issues or with a lot of huge amount of environmental sensitivities or my dog Salsa that just got antsier and antsier, the more she had to sit in a crate all day in a parking lot. If you've got a dog that's not suited to it, you can just beat yourself over the head doing your best to make it a fun thing for everybody. And maybe it's not. And when I finally realized, hey, this isn't really for her. I've got to do the right thing for her. And yeah, I went out and got another dog that I thought would enjoy it a lot. And you know what she did? She did enjoy it a lot more. The whole experience was something she enjoyed doing more. And I'm not saying trade in your dog and get another one.

(51:24):
That's not what I'm saying. But I'm saying be realistic. Sometimes I'm seeing people that are attempting to make this fit a square peg into a round hole and it's just not working for them. And sometimes for those people, I'll say, class is great for you, practice is great for you. Casual sniffing goes where you and your dog are there for a couple hours. You can still very much enjoy this sport. You don't have to compete if it's not in the flow. Now, if you're afraid of it and you're not willing to do the work, those aren't the great reasons to pull out a competition. But if your dog's not suited to it, sometimes you just have to be realistic.

Dianna L. Santos (52:05):
And I think that's an important thing for people to keep in mind. I will just piggyback on that, that the people also matter too. I am one of those people and I have just had this tug and pull the entirety of my career of, well, you're an instructor, you're supposed to compete. But I'm not very social and I don't want to be out in public and I don't want to do, it's just my personality. Again, I have an online dog training platform where I stay in my office 99% of the time and I'm a happy little clam. Works perfect. Yeah, there

Silke Wittig (52:32):
You go. Perfect. Yeah. Works for you.

Dianna L. Santos (52:34):
Exactly. So I think that it's important for people to recognize that yes, we absolutely should listen to our dogs and we don't need to put them into situations where maybe it's not a best fit, but also listen to yourself. I have gone to trials where people are just complete basket cases. I'm like, you do not need to spend the money here to do this. You could still be playing the activity at home. But I think pulling upon some of the things you guys are talking about can separate whether or not the competition or whatever it is, is not fitting their personality, or if they've just broken themselves down so far, then now they think it doesn't fit. But it could if they had a different approach. That's why I really appreciate talking to you both for this is highlighting the importance of recognizing what this imposter syndrome is, that it can absolutely derail you.

(53:19):
Trust me. I know. And it can really make it so that you are retracting from everything. You're going to trials. If you were competing, maybe you're making up excuses not to go to class, maybe then all of a sudden you're making excuses not to train, then you don't want to do set work at all. Then you're not even on social media. You're running away from your friends who are in set work class or whatever else. All those are signs that something is wrong, that's excessive, that's not normal, that's not great. But you can take some of the pieces of advice that Teah and Silke were talking about to come back off of that ledge a little bit. So for both of you, you are certified with mental management. Did you just want to talk a little bit about what the services that you offer, I'm sure there are people who are like me, maybe I need to do a little bit of this.

Silke Wittig (54:04):
Well, I'll actually be doing a mental management webinar for you in September, I believe. So I hope people can. So we'll sign up for that. I do a lot of Zoom sessions so people can contact me and we can go through the program. We will develop a personalized program just for them that they can then use. So that's usually how I go about it.

Dianna L. Santos (54:27):
And Teah,

Teah Anders (54:27):
Yeah, I do private sessions too, where I work with an individual, which is really fun. That's how Silke and I did it. And it's really great to work with somebody individually on it. And it's not the only way because you also learn lots by the input and communication between other people doing it and you get the support. So one of the things I really enjoy doing is getting in with someone that just wants to take their students through it. And so there might only be 12 or 15 of us, and we do a mental management seminar that way, which is really fun. I also do the webinars with Heather Sumlin, Lenny's daughter and Barbara Courier. So we do those seminars as well a couple times a year. And I think any way that just helps people to learn another way of doing it to free themselves up and have more fun with, not honestly not just Nose Work, but their life in general. It can be really powerful.

Dianna L. Santos (55:30):
And I really do appreciate both of you for spending the time talk with us today and also all that you're doing with this specific topic of mental management because it is exceedingly important. And like you just said, Tia, it's not just about Nose Work. It's not even just about our dogs. It can really improve the totality of your life. And then there are people like me, like, no, I don't want to change the way I do things. I want to suffer. But you know what? It would be really good if other people don't be like me. You can be happier, you can be more fulfilled, things can be better. And I highly recommend that everyone check out both of the things that Teah and Silke are doing with the Mental Management Program. They're both excellent, so definitely make sure you check those out. We'll make sure that we have all their contact information. And just as we're wrapping up, is there anything else that you ladies would like to leave our audience with,

Silke Wittig (56:14):
Really grateful that you invited us for this podcast? Yeah, really fun. I mean, we see it coming up more and more and as people are realizing that it is an important issue. It's not just about training the dog, but it's training the hamper.

Teah Anders (56:27):
I think there's been a tipping point in dog sports from what I've seen, being that I've been working some with mental management on myself since 2005 and then teaching it since 2013. I do believe people are recognizing that more of it is about our mental game and how we are approaching things. The dogs are very good at what they do. They can follow their nose, and if we can support them and respond in the best way possible, I just think the whole thing just gets better and better.

Dianna L. Santos (57:01):
I want to send a sincere thank you to both Silke and Teah for joining me for this really important conversation. Imposter syndrome is a very serious thing. It does indeed exist, and we want to make certain that we can recognize it and that we can take the steps in order to help ourselves go onto the other side. I definitely encourage everyone to check out what Silke and Teah offers. We're going to be including links so that you'll be able to learn more about their programs, including the Mental Management Program that they refer to beyond our website, as well as their social media. We're also very fortunate to be hosting Silke for an upcoming live webinar through Scent Work University. That's called Nerves Poisoning the Fun Webinar, so we'll have information for that as well. Definitely encourage you guys to check that out. But thank you so very much for listening. We really do appreciate it. Please give a cookie to your puppies for us. Happy training. We look forward to seeing you soon.