Ep. 139: Instructor Certification Program - Amy Herot and Jill Marie O'Brien

We are thrilled to have the opportunity to speak with the co-founders of K9 Nose Work® and NACSW™, Amy Herot and Jill Marie O'Brien regarding the Instructor Certification Program.

In this episode, Amy and Jill discuss why the Instructor Certification Program was created, what prospective instructors can expected from the program, the benefits afforded dogs, handlers and instructors and their plans for the future.

SPEAKERS

Amy Herot, Jill Marie O'Brien, Dianna L. Santos

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TRANSCRIPT

Dianna L. Santos (00:00:00):
Welcome to the All About Scent Work Podcast. In this podcast we talk about all things Scent Work, that can include training tips, a behind scenes look of what your instructor or trial official is going through a much more. In this episode, I have the distinct privilege of speaking to the co-founders of NACSW, Amy Herot and Jill Marie O'Brien, all about the Instructor Certification Program. Very exciting stuff. So before we start diving into the episode itself, let me do a very quick introduction of myself. My name is Dianna Santos. I'm the Owner and Lead Instructor of Scent Work University. This is an online dog training platform where we provide online courses, seminars, webinars, virtual events, eBooks, video reviews, zoom consultations, free training tips, livestreams, and so much more. Everything that we offer is all centered around Scent Work. So regardless of where you are in your sniffing journey, you're just getting started, you're looking to develop some more advanced skills, you're interested in competing or you're even trialing at the upper levels, we likely have a training solution for you. So now that you know a little bit more about me, let's dive into the episode itself. So in this episode I have the distinct privilege of speaking to Amy Herot and Jill Marie O'Brien of NACSW, all about the Instructor Certification program that they offer through NACSW. Let's take a listen to that conversation. Alright, so we are so delighted to have Amy Herot and Jill Marie O'Brien here for our podcast today. Very exciting stuff, but I want to give them a moment to introduce themselves for those of you who may not know who they are. So Amy, can you just give us a quick breakdown of your background please.

Amy Herot (00:01:34):
Thank you so much for having us, Dianna. So happy to be here. I'm happy to just give you a little background about myself. I'm a dog trainer at heart. Come from a dog training and behavior background. I've been doing detection for about 25 years and I think that where this all started for me was coming out of volunteering at an animal shelter and doing a lot of behavior cases and working on a lot of dogs with aggression. Then I simultaneously was in the professional detection world and as one of the three co-founders of K9 Nose Work and the National Association of Canine Scent Work, I connected with my two partners, Ron Gaunt and Jill Marie O'Brien. And we really saw that there was such a need for an outlet for dogs to, they have this fantastic sniffing ability and we certainly evaluated tons of dogs that did that. So what kind of really drew me to this and my background was that professional side and then working at the shelter and that's kind of what led to me coming together with Ron and Jill and started this whole thing.

Dianna L. Santos (00:02:43):
Awesome. And Jill, do you want us to give a little background on yourself please?

Jill Marie O'Brien (00:02:47):
Yeah, so I've been working with dogs close to 40 years. I guess I probably started somewhere in the late eighties. It feels like that was yesterday. I've always had a passion also for how dogs operate instinctually. That just was something that I was always interested in. Even early on I had worked in a shelter and ran a behavior and training department for 15 years and still have an interest, a personal interest in rescue and shelter dogs and finding ways to enhance their lives while they're waiting for permanent home placement and family. So that's always been something that's important to me. And Scent Work, we're going on doing this for quite a long time. It's been very personal to me and I had a detection dog working with Ron and Amy on that side of things as well. He passed away a few years ago and I've been primarily focused now on canine Nose Work and the education side. I focus a lot of my energy on the instructor certification program side and the education side of NACSW and K9 Nose Work. And so that's really important part of just what I really enjoy doing. I mean, I like the trialing stuff too, but I really have been focusing a lot on the education side.

Dianna L. Santos (00:04:06):
Perfect. So again, for anyone who isn't aware of these two women along with Ron Gaunt gave us all this wonderful activity that we've been able to enjoy for all of this time with our dogs. So always make certain that you say thank you to Amy and Jill and Ron. But the reason I wanted to talk to you both today is that you have an upcoming opening for the instructor certification course that you offer through NACSW and K9 Nose Work? So I wanted to talk a little bit more about that, but people may say, wait a second, hang on. I thought NACSW was just about trialing. So could you both just talk about the difference how there are two different divisions, there's the education division and then the trialing division, and maybe talk a little bit about how that all came to be, which ones started first and why it is that you have these two different divisions. Let's do Amy and then Jill.

Amy Herot (00:04:53):
Yeah, when I mentioned that we started this so long ago, we came together between our professional work and our work at the animal shelter, we really started this as an activity. We didn't get together and say let's create a dog sport. The sport was born out of providing an enrichment outlet for dogs that we saw as part of doing our professional work and looking at a lot of the shelter dogs that they really needed a job to do. And we thought we take a little piece of what we do with our detection dogs and use this as a tool in helping dogs have a great experience because we certainly saw lots of dogs who really love doing this work. And that's really how the class started. It was very experimental and it's not like we were the first people to do any kind of Scent Work.

(00:05:44):
I mean, we don't teach the dogs how to use their noses as everyone knows we're using and harnessing the skill that nature gave them. What we created was a class kind of situation where people could, the lay person, the companion dog person, the sport person, somebody who wasn't looking to select for a professional dog, could tune into who their dog is. And we developed a kind of program through some trial and error of applying our detection dog techniques of what really works for the wide range of the dogs out there to help them kind of tap into their inner search dog. And it takes some time and some doing. And I think what happened in those initial classes is we learned a lot about what was involved. And of course as the people got really involved, then they started to get a little more competitive with each other. And maybe I'll pause for at some point in between 2007 and 2008, we veered into the competition arena and that took a turn, but it's a separation from what we see as education. And before we talk more about that, I just want to turn it over to Jill, see if she has anything to add about the start of these classes.

Jill Marie O'Brien (00:07:06):
Yeah, I mean it is kind of funny too in a way because I had been working with Amy and Ron training with my dogs, still working at the shelter, the behavior and training department and thinking I think there are dogs that would actually benefit from what we're doing from the detection side of things. We can see how, I don't know if fulfilled is the right word, kind of a human sort of way of thinking things, but how the dogs were thriving that were engaged in Scent Work in kind of a detection type of Scent Work because that's what we were most involved in. And I had also done tracking and did some training for English working trials, which had, so I've always had that kind of interest and thought there are dogs in the community that would actually benefit from this, but it's not like you're going to take somebody's retired guide dog or just companion dog make them Joe pro detection dog.

(00:08:09):
So it was taking sort of like Amy said, the concepts, the stuff that you pull out, what you're going to do to identify a dog that has certain skill sets and the things that you do to build from that. And using that is sort of the framework for the class. But those early classes were really, I think they were kind of advertised as lost your remote need to find your keys. No idea that it was sort of going to go in this direction. There was no odor introduced then it was really just dogs doing all of that, building those skill building things with primary toys and food and things to just build search interest and search enthusiasm for dogs that might not necessarily have that. So whereas the professional dogs, they're kind of born with it and it's easy to cultivate, but we're taking dogs that have sort of, but I knew that there were dogs in the community that would really benefit.

(00:09:05):
And so I said, well, why don't we just do a glass, Ron and Amy, what do you think of this kind of, and it was just sort of an off the cuff kind of let's have a class. And then people really loved it. I went on maternity leave, didn't know what was going to happen. This was 2006. And while I was away on maternity leave, people were asking, when are you going to start up classes again? And that first class in 2006 was six dogs. And from that class of six dogs just searching for toys and primary and Ron turning himself into a pretzel and Amy trying to encourage people and me just kind of going, what was I thinking? Those six dogs of just working from that place is where we brought us to where we are today. This is 20 year anniversary of the very first Nose Work class and we say canine Nose Work, what we call it sort of in our sandbox, but we're talking about any kind of Nose Work, Scent Work, sport detection, dog activity out there started in the way that people are doing it today, started with those six dogs in that class.

Dianna L. Santos (00:10:15):
That's amazing.

Jill Marie O'Brien (00:10:17):
And it's really crazy. And then from there they just were like when we're having the next class. And then Amy went and did her thing and said, well, let's up in Washington. And they played around with odor and people were, were hungry to learn things and to do new things and different things and expand their understanding. And there are a lot of people that really want to understand their dogs in a much more profound way than just, and I hate the word just, I always beat myself up, but the sports side only, they really want to understand their dog in a more complex and meaningful way. And I think Nose Work and Scent Work really helped people become sort of armchair ologists, watching their dog function in a way that is as close to what we can, unless you take 'em out in the woods, what they're most naturally going to function as. So I think it was really interesting for people, but that's kind of where that came from. And then Amy's got her hand up. Yes, Amy.

Amy Herot (00:11:23):
I think one of the things that's really interesting about how this all got started, which is what led to the instructor program is that the realm of detection dogs was in the professional world only there were people who knew about it. There's obviously people who did tracking and utility. It's not like detection people were the only ones who knew about scent, but it wasn't accessible for your companion dog owner unless they knew somebody that was connected it or maybe there were a trainer of sorts. And I think what we really did was our experimentation led us to understand what's needed to bring these dogs to, how do we tease out the inner hunter in these dogs and build that search drive that would even be the kind of dog you'd consider for detection in professional detection. They select for dogs that have certain qualities and most dogs are just cast aside in terms of what they wouldn't really be appropriate for detection, but it doesn't mean they didn't like sniffing.

(00:12:29):
That's their worldview. How they see the world is through their nose. So I think what happened with our early classes is that curiosity Jill was talking about led to people wanting so much more and how to do it. And what we learned, and the reason we finally developed an instructor program is we were teaching so much because more and more people were coming to take the class. We needed some relief. And the hard part was the first instructors that were interested in doing that, they felt maybe that they needed some better credentialing. And we thought, well, what is it that they've done that we could say makes them more qualified than somebody else who comes to class? And so we kind of developed this program of observational hours and they walked around watching hide placement and we talked about a lot of dog behavior and we studied stent work and old faction and they accrued a certain amount of knowledge and then we created a final exam and we started that program because one, we wanted people to be able to expand the teaching that we needed, but we wanted them to stick to the approach that we'd honed through our process, not just come in.

(00:13:48):
And obviously a seasoned detection trainer knows how to train a detection dog, but they might've never worked Bijon for Hise that has lived on the couch most of its life or something or has been in the circus or whatever its background is. I was

Jill Marie O'Brien (00:14:04):
Afraid to walk on floors.

Amy Herot (00:14:06):
Exactly.

Dianna L. Santos (00:14:08):
So I think that all of that is an amazing thing for people to remember of how this all started, where your thought process was, where the demand was within this little community that you had built up that then just kind of exploded and where your stance was and what you were trying to achieve. So for people who are out there, particularly fellow dog trainers and instructors who were like, Ooh, this Nose Work Scent Work thing is really getting kind of hot and I think I like to add it to my program, what should I do? Should I just go out and do it myself? My recommendation. So I like, oh, you should go check out the Instructor Certification Course that they offer. It's really good. So could you both just talk a little bit about where the program stands now, what it is that your focus is, what it is that you're trying to achieve, and how it is that people should think about when they're entering into this program, what they're going to obtain at the end of the day? So we'll do Jill and then Amy.

Jill Marie O'Brien (00:14:58):
Okay. Yeah, no, that's a great question. What is, what is our goals? I think where we're at right now, just so people have an idea on the instructors side of things, we have a little bit over 800 instructors at various phases of certification internationally. We've definitely expanded outside of the United States, so we have instructors all over, which is what I was talking about earlier when I said the NACSW K9 Nose Work class instruction method or technique or philosophy, whatever, is not just geared towards NACSW because we have people all over the world participating in instructing. So we have quite a few instructors and I think one of the key things for us, especially as we start growing in numbers, is still having some consistency, some consistency in the program. Somebody can, and we talk about this even in our course weekend, that you can go from, you can move from California to New York and connect with another CNWI Certified Nose Work Instructor.

(00:16:13):
And for the most part, everybody's an individual. People are different levels with their dogs. It might be doing different things, but for the most part it should look somewhat the same in the sense of how people talk about safety of the dogs, the process, depending on where you're at, all of those things should be pretty consistent. And I think that's what is important to us, that everybody starts from the same baseline, gets the same message. We work really hard to stay in communication with all of our instructors because we have people that are far away. We are not going to see them on a regular basis. So we do what we can to make sure that we stay connected. We have our instructor only forums, which I have to say I love because we have so many really wonderful people on the forum that can give information.

(00:17:15):
Sig who's a director of education, she also helps manage the mentor program for new instructors. So we have a mentorship program for new instructors, which is really important to us as well. And then some instructor only education at least once a year, give or take a month or two here or there. We do enhanced education day or it was a whole weekend before just for instructors that are focused on things to enhance their understanding and their knowledge and the things that they can bring to their students as also enhancing their own businesses too. We want to support that as well. And the program is always evolving and growing with whatever the needs are and always trying to stay fluid so we can adapt where it's important to adapt and then hold onto the true core values and foundational principles regardless of where somebody is training.

Dianna L. Santos (00:18:13):
Amy, did you have anything that you wanted to add?

Amy Herot (00:18:16):
There are kind of two points. The first one is about adapting to the dog you have and the second one is about the red bandana. So the first point is to help people understand that the method that we have of canine Nose Work, what Jill was saying, the kind of expectation people have when they come to a class. One big part of it is that we're going at the dog's pace, that what we're actually working with our instructors on is how to adapt the training to the dog that's in front of them and not have a cookie cutter methodology that this is how we do everything. Exactly. And I think there's been some misunderstanding about that because of not realizing that the reason we start dogs on food or toy is to help the handler become a better observer. First to cultivate that independence in the dog and learn who the dog is.

(00:19:15):
And the process we have is that's really what it's more about, is it not being actually so strict but there to be more flexibility and creative creativity in bringing out the dog that's needed and helping the handler also get up to speed. Maybe there's a very strong dog, but the handler has to learn how to see. So that's why Jill sort of makes this reference to being an anthologist because we really help the handlers learn how to be better observers. The second thing I want to say is that because this was influenced by our professional detection background in all my years working with detection dogs, one dog searches at a time, you don't have five handlers out there with their dogs and heel watching the dog search because usually you're searching buildings or you're going through a building with somebody or wherever it is that you're searching and you're focused on that dog.

(00:20:19):
And so our initial classes were modeled just what our training was like, which meant that it provided an opportunity for dogs who get a little over aroused and overexcited or might have some moderate but manageable aggression or reactivity towards other dogs. It just gave them a space to do an activity where they didn't have to be encountering face one-on-one. These other in their face are all in obedience mode next to each other in an obedience line, which is not a bad thing, that's a different skill. But it opened the door for dogs who really did not have any kind of outlet in a class sort of situation, which then provided an outlet for people who are very isolated who own these kind of dogs. And so we offered an opportunity that became very popular and we drew a lot of those dogs, which then caused a little bit of a pendulum swing where maybe people thought that's all we were about. But really it's about creating an environment where dogs work one at a time so that we can all have a tremendous amount of focus on that dog and that is what provides the opportunity for dogs to participate who don't really want to be greeting other dogs the whole time they're at class. So it, it's why I think we were able to reach a really different audience because most organization in sports or activities don't have that kind of situation.

Dianna L. Santos (00:21:53):
And I think that's an amazing thing to point out. I mean that's literally how I got involved all this to begin with. My extraordinarily not dog reactive, but I want to eat other dogs, Doberman trying to find an activity that would be safe enough. And as an person who was a baby trainer at the time, it really spoke to me to learn more about how I could understand what he was saying, how I could keep him safe, what it is that I needed to do. And then also the kind of modifications that you're talking about as a trainer or an instructor, how is it that I can meet the needs of this dog and this handler and then how can I adjust for a group and what are the ways that I can do this in a way that's successful? So I will tell you having gone through the CNWI program it is absolutely superb.

(00:22:36):
And these are the kinds of things that instructors and trainers would absolutely learn. And that skillset carries over to the other things that you do. Even as an instructor, your eyes will become better. You'll learn to read dogs and handlers better so that you can meet them where they are when you're teaching those other classes. Also, the ability and the need to be so flexible carries over to your other things that you're offering as well. Whereas before maybe it was, okay, we're going to do a cookie cutter, we're doing basic manners, everyone's doing this. Whereas once you start with this approach of like, I actually need to adjust everything for this team,

(00:23:14):
Can do that to everything. That's such a gift. So could you guys talk a little bit about some of the things that you've noticed while you've been doing the program as far as the growth or the feedback that you've received from fellow instructors who've gone through as far as what they have encountered as far as the positives of going through the program as far as their growth as a professional? So either of you want to tackle that big long question.

Jill Marie O'Brien (00:23:40):
I have two points to make. One is sort of the instructor point and then another one more about sort of the handler client side of things. If I can remember that point. By the time I get to it, my brain is old, but I think what I get back from a lot of this is going to be probably more geared towards the experienced or the seasoned dog training professional, either trainer or somebody in behavior or just somebody that's been competing for a really long time but has a lot of experience and has shared their knowledge. One of the things that I find interesting, even if they've done some type of Scent Work activity before, whether tracking or something else, how much it changes their perspective and it kind of revitalizes them when they're, because I think as instructors we are also expected to perform in a lot of ways.

(00:24:38):
And I think when you step back and you allow the animal, the individual animal, the dog in this case to just do what they do without needing and we're talking the foundational beginning phases of developing a dog, when we're able to stand back, that's a huge relief in a way. And that you get to really see that dog function in the most organic way possible without as much human direction or scope in the beginning. And that gives you an opportunity to really learn who that individual dog is, right? And then that information as you move along in whatever training journey you might be on, you take that information with you and you can apply it and adjust as needed as you go. I think a lot of trainers found that that has kind of reinvigorated their enthusiasm about what it is they're doing. And then on the client side, what I heard not just from handlers but also from their instructors is this, and you'll know this too, I think you alluded to this in talking about your doberman, what happens is sometimes we hear people say, I started Nose Work, my dog had insert behavioral challenge here.

(00:25:56):
And I always joke, I say dogs don't have behavior issues, people have issues with their behavior. And those are two different ways of looking at it. Unless whatever's happening is truly detrimental to their survival and wellbeing, it's usually just people have problems with their behavior. But I digress. So that's a whole nother topic. But what we hear is that after starting Nose Work, the issues that they were faced with their dog seems to be mitigated, doesn't eliminate canine Nose Work. And sometimes we have a lot of people that do behavior that employ employee canine Nose Work specifically this kind of methodology into their program is not a behavior fix, right? It is a supplement, it's an add-on to whatever they're doing at that point in time. But what they say is that they notice the behavior of their dog gets better, problems that they've had diminish their reactivity on walks may not be gone, but it is manageable.

(00:26:58):
And I think part of it is going back to the observation piece where we spend so much time building the human observation skills of what their dog's communication is when working in a natural more organic type setup where it's not human directed as much in the beginning but it's more dog directed, the people get to observe that. And then when you're out and you're much more in tune with what's happening with that dog and can interrupt behaviors and redirect and create different types of responses in that moment than what might've been normally happening in the past. So more opportunities for reinforcement, positive feedback management, you can jump in before things. And I think just taking time to observe the dog and then applying that is what really is helpful. It's not just people doing canine Nose Work and I think it's a little bit of both of those things. So just kind of to answer that question, that's sort of how I've seen things. I could probably think of a million other things, but we have a limited time, so I'll do my best to keep it short. But Amy and I, we really do believe in what it is that we're doing.

Dianna L. Santos (00:28:08):
And Amy, did you have anything that you wanted to add onto that as far as the feedback that you're receiving from instructors who've gone through the program or things that you've noticed as far as benefits for the dogs or the handlers?

Amy Herot (00:28:18):
Yeah, I think that Ron put it well, and it's the part that takes the pressure off the instructor that Jill was referring to almost every class, whether it was a class of instructors or a class of handlers, he would say, we don't really teach the dog anything, we're just the tour guides. And I loved that he phrased it that way because you can be a student of the dog along with your students. Yes, you are doing a certification program, you're getting a lot of background, you're learning how to put together a curriculum that works and filling in blanks for areas that might not be your area of strength. I mean the course, the instructor program actually gives you a lot of background about all of that. But I think that's very comforting for instructors to be in a position where it's okay to be, let the dog show us what's happening.

(00:29:12):
Let's be good observers together. And I like that idea of the tour guide. So that's one thing that instructors have got some feedback that it relaxes them to know they can be creative in that way. And the other thing that I found fascinating, I used to hear this a lot in the beginning, is that people said, especially people who have been dog trainers for other types of classes, they said they loved it. People loved coming to class because they just didn't have the kind of pressure to perform there would be in some other things or it wasn't something they had to do. The dogs being naughty, so I have to learn how to put some obedience on it. They loved what it's like to instruct people in a very free setting. And that was very rewarding for instructors because you see firsthand, it comes back to you to see the dog relax and now to see the handler relax more and then they want to do more and they want to learn more and they're eager. And in any kind of teaching profession, that is what is incredibly rewarding when you see that passion click in.

Dianna L. Santos (00:30:24):
Absolutely. So I'm hoping that you can just build upon that a little bit more, Amy, if you could, as far as the idea of having instructors have that opportunity to notice that freedom that their clients are feeling. And it's almost as though the clients now have an opening to want to do more with their dogs. They have the skillset, they're able to see their dogs a little bit more, they don't feel overwhelmed. Oh my God, I have these 20 things that apparently I'm supposed to know, but I don't know any of them. But now they actually have the passion to connect where their dog, their dog is that potentially you could do other activities outside of Nose Work if that was your specialty as an instructor and a trainer. And now that there is potentially the way for that team to be more successful. Whereas before it was kind of an uphill battle because the client, the human felt so inept or so overwhelmed or things were so difficult.

(00:31:17):
So could you talk about that a little bit as far as instructors who may be interested in going into your program for instructor certification, they have all this wealth of knowledge and other types of specialties and they're hearing about some of the benefits of Nose Work, but maybe they are hitting those conflict points where they have clients that they know, oh, if I could just get you to do these 20 things with the client's, like that's too hard for me, I don't know how and nevermind, I don't want to come to class. I'll sit on the couch with my dog instead that potentially they could be doing something like Nose Work that could be giving them that opening where they could then do those other activities. Could you talk a little bit about things that potential instructors may want to consider of potentially looking into the certification program that it could actually help them reach those clients in that way, kind of like a back door and to giving them the opening to all those other activities?

Amy Herot (00:32:05):
One of the things I would say first off is how we design our classes. It's a kind of culture of operating a class a certain way where we're all invested in everyone's dog. It isn't. I just come and do, I'm the best dog in class and I show off my dog. And as an overachiever, I wouldn't be that give the teacher an apple. Part of the learning is to care about all the dogs that are there. So the one dog at a time allows you to really watch every dog and to be more invested. And whereas as a trainer, if you're trying to engage students, one of the things that can really help and certainly brought a lot of Nose Work students I know to our program students and later as instructors is that a lot of other activities, no criticism to them, but just the nature of the activity, people feel very labeled.

(00:33:10):
They don't fit into the box that that activity needs. And so you can feel kind of ostracized or bad about your dog and it chips away at the feelings you have about your dog. And so this culture that we've created, well we try anyway for it to be very welcoming. And obviously there can be people who have had bad experiences, but we get overwhelming response that that is the thing people really respond to that there's an acceptance of you being where you are right now and a patience to not hit a certain curriculum target at certain dates and to not test people before they're ready. And I think that's a huge part of a draw for a lot of people who have been kicked out of their competition obedience class or their dog's obnoxious and agility or whatever it is, the thing that's their Achilles heel. The dog would rather be hunting rats than doing agility. I think we let people tap into that instinct. And I think that's one of the angles instructors can take to reach some people to add this sort of enrichment is that it's really freeing that there's not such high expectations to meet any sort of training rigors at first. Once you get on further, there's all sorts of technique that can come later, but in the beginning that's really the draw.

Dianna L. Santos (00:34:43):
Perfect. And Jill, was there anything that you wanted to add on to that specifically keeping in mind again, people who may be interested in the certification program as instructors and the way that they could meet the human client? I think that one of the things that you guys have done an exceedingly good job with NACSW and just both of you generally is the focus is on the dog. I think a lot of times the people are like, well, I don't know where I fit into this. Great, so you're going to help the dog, that's wonderful, but you want me to drive to this place and then you're going to put hot dogs inside of a box and I just have to stand there and I'm paying you money for this. What gift. So Jill, could you talk a little bit about for instructors who may be interested in the program, how it is that they can bridge that gap to see the benefit? The three of us know, we've seen it ourselves, the growth in the human, yes, the dogs are doing amazing, but the human growth is what's so contagious for me. It's like, oh my God, I can't wait for you to actually see your dog now and you're going to improve your relationship. This is awesome. So could you talk about that a little bit?

Jill Marie O'Brien (00:35:45):
Well, I'm going to just talk on a very pragmatic level. Sure. I think one of the big things for the student, the human student that as an instructor you have coming to class is a lot of 'em are so used to, and I think why I'll speak for myself too sometimes going to classes myself, I'm tired, I have a lot, I'm carrying, the classes are often at the end of the day or on the weekend when I have so many other things going on or whatever and I'm like, I got to go to class and I'm going to expend all this energy and my dog's jumping at the end of the leash and I can't manage my dog because nobody creates their dogs at these. Then I'm expected to train and practice during the week. That can be really, I know it sounds crazy and people are like, well, you have a dog.

(00:36:31):
It's your responsibility to go to class and whatever. We can say that if we want. But there's also a practicality and a reality to everyday people having their dogs that are not crazy dog sport enthusiasts that spend every weekend at some godforsaken place in the middle of the rain running their dog in a trial. That's a totally different beast. But I think when people come to class and it's the expectations, one of the things that we really work hard with instructors is how to set expectations so that when people come to class, they don't go, oh, you're just putting treats in a box because they don't realize that that's just a framework and that's just a tool to build and develop something in the long term. It's not just this one, one-time short-term thing. And the funny thing is that sometimes people come to class and because it's one dog at a time, and if you've got a class of somewhere six to eight, so there's time in between, they can put their dog in the car, crate them in another room, which is one of the things that we want the dog away from the search area or blocked off from the search area, is that the person can go, okay, my dog's going to come out and work and I don't have to do much in the beginning.

(00:37:56):
We just don't tell them that Later on when you're hooked and you realize your dog loves it and you really involved, you actually have to be a handler and you're going to have to do things. But we kind of just, but that initial thing, and I think that's why so many other sports are losing participants and are shrinking in involvement because I think there's a big barrier to getting involved. I think there's an attitude, and this is unfortunately what I see happening in the Nose Work, Scent Work, sports side of things, a trying to put up barriers for people to get involved that if you're not a serious competitor, we don't have time for you whatnot. But you have to find ways to kind of bridge that and get around that wall. But I think for a lot of regular people that as trainers and instructors we're trying to give opportunities to and encourage them to get involved with their dog in a more diverse way, different types of things.

(00:38:59):
Sometimes coming to a class and knowing you can sit in a chair for 20 minutes without having to manage your dog because your dog's created or in the car and you can watch other dogs and learn from the instructor and focus. I wish more dog training in general had dogs created in between things because you just cannot learn if you're trying to manage your dog. And I always say that we're expecting human beings to do a remarkable thing. They are learning, you take the normal pet dog class, so they're trying to learn skills, timing, leash management, how to position the dog, manage the dog, redirect the dog, all these different things. They're learning simultaneously teaching and as the instructor, you're sort of trying to coach this mayhem that's happening. And that's really frustrating for people. And I think coming to a Nose Work class when you say, you know what?

(00:39:57):
We're going to start the dogs. We are going to start 'em on leash just to make sure we get their attention on the boxes, but then you're going to cut the dog off leash and you can just kind of relax and chill out. And as the instructor, I will try to keep the dog engaged unless the dog has special needs, then we'll bring you in and always making sure we're accommodating the dog. And I think for a lot of our clients, that's a huge sigh. Like, oh my god. And then they go home and their dog's tired and the dog feels, and then you say you could just do a couple of box games once or twice a week, but you don't even have to practice just come to class. And they're like, we don't have to practice. What are you talking? I don't have to practice.

(00:40:38):
Alright, obviously when you get further along we say that the more you practice the better you're going to do probably. But in the beginning it's like you don't just come to class once a week. If you have time during the week to do some box games, great if you don't, no sweat. And people are relieved. They can bring their dog to an environment, they can do this activity and they don't feel like if when you go to physical therapy and they give you this list of exercises and you don't do it and you have to show up the next day and you're like, I didn't do it, you're like, screw physical therapy, I'll just suffer in pain. I think that's what happens to dog pet people. And I think also speaking to if you have private clients and being able to extrapolate what you're doing in Nose Work and using those tools and the support of let's say the instructor forum and other instructors because we have a lot of really amazing people that are also experts in behavior.

(00:41:37):
We have veterinarians in the program, we have people that have taught human learning for decades, people that are enthusiasts of the sport or so wide variety. But a lot of people also use it in their private client work because the dog just can't yet function in the dynamics of a class or for whatever reason the human can't get to class because they have a reason they can't get to class. And then also in the shelter environment. So we have a lot of instructors that are certified knows where instructors are working towards that focus more on behavior enrichment or behavior rehab within the context of shelter and rescue. And I think that's really an important piece as somebody that ran a behavior and training department for so long, I think that's a really key piece of it because you also learn a lot about the behavior stuff when you work with those dogs. But anyway, I went on a little tear, but that's sort of my take on it.

Dianna L. Santos (00:42:38):
I think they're both bringing up amazing things. I just want to put a quick little bow on this and then I want you to talk about what your future plans are is again, as someone who has gone through the program and everything that it offered, some of the things that I've noticed throughout my career is the things that you're talking about as far as the human side of it, the ability for those clients to sit there and watch other dogs work as their dog is safely contained within the crate, they can then build that community of support around those individual dogs and they can see the change in those dogs that then can apply to what they're noticing with their own dogs of even if they had the most confident amazing dog, they thought, then they notice the other dog who came in on their belly the first day of class and then week five, suddenly the dog is striding in.

(00:43:22):
They're like, that's really amazing. And I actually noticed my dog isn't as confident as I thought they actually were a little hesitant around that corner or whatever the case may be. A level of empathy that is cultivated through that kind of structure is incredible that they can then take home with their own dogs. That is the best gift that you both have given me through your program that I was able to notice a witness that in these humans. So thank you very much for that. And the other thing I just wanted to point out is as an instructor, the ability to be so flexible and to let the dogs educate you as far as what you need to do and not to be married to any one thing to allow yourself to be humble, they will humble you all of the time and not to take that personally and then to try to be creative and curious, to try to figure out, okay, so what is it that you're telling me and what is it that I need to do to help you? And then cultivating that with your clients and with your classes as well so that no one's like, oh, my dog is just stubborn. No, actually your dog was talking to you, just didn't hear what they were saying. And that can happen to me as an instructor too. And then I need to hone my ear to better listen to those dogs. So again, all wonderful things that your program does. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Amy Herot (00:44:29):
Such kind words really very, very nice. I'm glad to know that the program did that for you and your dog.

Dianna L. Santos (00:44:37):
The ability to see that with other clients is incredible. And that is the thing that drives me to keep doing it because let's all be honest, being a professional dog trainer is very, very hard. It is very difficult. It is challenging, it is trying, but the moment you're like, oh, maybe I should just retire, that's when you have one of these instances with a client where there is that connection between them and their dog. They saw what the dog was saying, you see the dog improving. You see the dog also lighting up because like my person heard me, okay, they're not listening to me right now, but they heard me for that second. It was so exciting. It's those little instances that are just so incredibly, they help me want to keep doing this, if that makes sense. And it's because of the kind of things that you guys built into the program to allow that to happen.

(00:45:26):
Whereas with something like let's say trying to train behaviors with clicker training, I love clicker training. I'm a KPA, I love that stuff is the human can get so caught up in their timing and then they are just so down on themselves, I missed it. I did this, I did that. And then the dog is frustrated. It's just kind of this awful spiral. You don't need to have that. We can get them an opening by seeing the dog better so they could potentially capture behaviors when they're going back and doing clicker training. So this could be a wonderful foundation that could be a wonderful place for people to start and then they can do these other things later, which I think is awesome. So before I keep just filibustering both of you, again, you are the guests.

Amy Herot (00:46:05):
I love what you're saying. However, because that community of support to me, anyone who has traveled abroad and has made an effort to learn even the tiniest bit of a foreign language to your native language, it opens so many doors. You see things so differently. And I feel that's a lot of what we're doing in our Nose Work classes. By getting everyone invested in everyone's dogs, there's a fluency that you gain as an observer in the language of dogs. And I think that adds to the connectivity that you're talking about and why it kind of keeps going in that direction and reinforces that further direction. And then there's more interest. And as an instructor who wants to add things to your repertoire of teaching and your own skillset, it's just an alternative and nice tool to whether you incorporate it privately. The program is geared for everybody.

(00:47:09):
Like we started today talking about how it didn't start as a sport, but the sport did develop and the sport is driving forward so fast and furious. It's like the carrot that keeps a lot of it's dangled in front of people, keeping them interested. And that's a good thing because that creates a lot of excitement. But it's important for anybody to know who wants to do the program that the trial division was born out of. These classes, the way it's structured is kind of rooted in our mission, but it's training neutral and it's separated from the education. And the way we work on our program is to, we want instructors to be able to say, no previous skills required. You come to class, you don't have to have good timing, you don't have to have a clicker. You could take a dog out of the shelter, come to class the first day and we're going to help you.

(00:48:04):
And that's a great tool. And if you are a professional detection handler or you have been competitive in every sport and you're in class with the person who just picked up the dog at the shelter, I think what's neat is that the way we've designed the program is that you can have all those same people in a class learning from each other and building that community of understanding. And that makes everybody's focus be on all of the dogs in the community, not just their personal dog. And I just think that's a good societal mission in general. And that's really kind of what drives me going forward. Like you had said, where are we going with this? I spend a huge chunk of my time on the trial division and I want to keep driving that and seeing it grow and reflecting what are the important points of our mission are.

(00:48:57):
But I also want people to know that how you get there is a big part of the journey for many and that for being an instructor, we are welcome. You don't ever have to compete. We spend a lot of time talking to our instructors. You could be working only with shelter dogs, you could just be doing private clients. You don't to ever have to do competition. That's just the thing that brings a lot of excitement for people and it gives them some goals. And we structure a lot of training around those goals. It helps in curriculum development, but it's really open to so many people. So I think where I see the program going is furthering that education and just being able to reach more people about what it is that really sets us apart and what was really driving our mission when we started.

Dianna L. Santos (00:49:51):
Perfect. And Jill, do you have anything you wanted to add onto that?

Jill Marie O'Brien (00:49:54):
No, I mean, I think Amy did a really good job looping everything together. And I think last year we added 150 new instructors, and this year we are looking to add anywhere between 75 and another 125 depending on how we schedule courses. And so what's so amazing to me is that it's still growing and people still want to be a part of it. And I think it's the community of people that's so powerful. And I think that Amy touched on this a bit, it's this sort of, and it's a network.

Dianna L. Santos (00:50:30):
So we've talked up the program again, I cannot recommend it enough. I think it's absolutely incredible for people who are interested in joining. You actually have a new opening starting up soon. Can you talk a little bit about that, how people can learn a little bit more about it and how they can get started?

Jill Marie O'Brien (00:50:44):
So we have a new course starting the end of February. That's segment one, and that's February 27, 28, March 1st and second. I have to think, is this a leap year or not a leap year? Stop and think. And then it's segment two. So the course is eight days and it's broken up into two segments and it's all online. So it's virtual learning. It does require you to be present for each weekend's four days. So it's not recorded that you can watch later. It's quite interactive. So we do want people to be there online, but in person. And so the second segment is like August 14, 15, 16, 17, something like that. But if somebody wants to find out more about the instructor classes and program, if they go to kine Nose Work dot com and there's a whole section that says instructor program, find out more. And if they want to get information or whatnot, they can just go to the contact at the bottom of the page, either info or contact, and somebody will send them information where we have it open right now still it will close for registration.

(00:51:57):
And our next plan one will be in July, but it has not opened yet and we have not scheduled what would be the corresponding second weekend. So before we post that, we want to make sure we have the second weekend scheduled. But yeah, so we have one starting right now and we've, we are doing a lot more outreach to kind of be out there in the communities and at some of the conferences we can't get everywhere, but we're trying to target different things. And this year we're going back to Animal Care Expo, which was used to be the Humane Society, but I think it's now Humane World for Animals is what they call themselves. Anyway, that's a very, very large shelter and rescue focused expo with trade show and conference talks and workshops and things. So we're going to be doing a booth there to kind of promote the shelter dog piece.

(00:52:52):
And we're working in concert with called Happy Sniffing Dogs Research Project. And it's really about how Canine Nose Work can enhance the quality of life and adoptability for shelter dogs. So we're working with them. And then in June, we are doing a booth at the World Dog Show in Europe because we have a large contingent of instructors internationally now, and we want to make sure that we're continuing to support instructors both state side and internationally as well. That's very important to us. And then the big thing that we're doing is the Canis Conference in 2026, and we are one of the affiliates that will be doing a track for canis conference on all things sent work and Nose Work. So that should be pretty exciting. And Amy and I, along with the McManus and Wendy Rabble will be doing talks in our tracks, plus we will be doing demos and we will have a booth there for the canas conference, and that will be in Schaumburg in October of 2026.

(00:53:58):
So we've got a lot going on. We really, it's important to us to support our instructors and to really help them grow their businesses. And that's the other thing too, as I should have said earlier, is one of the funny feedback we get from people is they like, oh, I started this one class and they go, now I don't have time to teach anything else because Nose Work has taken out my entire schedule. And once you get people in, you cannot get rid of students. And so you have to keep adding new classes for the wait list that you have. And sometimes you are like, I don't know how I'm going to get people. It's really hard to get started. Then all of a sudden when they get started, they're like, I don't have any more days in the week or hours in the day to offer any more Nose Work classes.

Amy Herot (00:54:38):
That's why we started the instructor program.

Jill Marie O'Brien (00:54:40):
Exactly, exactly. It's really hilarious because I think all of a sudden people are like, oh my God, I don't have any more days. And so yeah, that's kind of the fun part of it as well.

Dianna L. Santos (00:54:51):
Amy, was there anything that you wanted to add as we start wrapping up?

Amy Herot (00:54:54):
I did. I wanted to just remind people that one of the things that is different about this program is that it's not required that you're a dog trainer to participate in the instructor course. That just like we've adapted to all the different types of dogs that are out there when they come to class. We are that way about the people too. We want to cast a very wide net of people who are really interested in learning about this, which is why the program is so in depth. And obviously somebody who's using Nose Work for behavior enrichment, for dog aggression or situation that we're not targeting, that person needs additional training. But it's amazing how many people in our program started out as a handler, fell in love with it, started doing lots and lots of classes, maybe they started competing and they just loved it so much and wanted to do it with other people that they are now instructors and some of them are out there coing now and judging and trials, and some of them have even then gone on to dog training. So it's really about learning how to teach people as well as let the dog be the teacher, which is why we can structure it that way. So we just want to be very inviting to somebody who, maybe you're a newer trainer, you don't have 40 years of experience like Jill, so you're intimidated thinking that that's what's needed. It isn't needed, is passion and diligence and love of the dogs and wanting to really reach people with their dogs.

Dianna L. Santos (00:56:35):
That's amazing. Again, I want to thank you both so very much for everything that you've done and that you continue to do. I don't know how you both do it, sleep, what is sleep. It's incredible what you both do. So thank you so very much for everything.

Jill Marie O'Brien (00:56:48):
I just wanted to say thank you for suggesting that we do this podcast. We haven't had a lot of opportunity to really just talk about the instructor program itself. We talk about canine Nose Work in general usually, or some specific area, but to be able to just talk about the instructor program. Thank you. We really appreciate it.

Amy Herot (00:57:10):
Yeah, thank you. We appreciate the opportunity and we really appreciate how much you dedicate yourself to education for people in this community. So we're very happy to see that happening and what a broad reach you have. So thank you for including us.

Dianna L. Santos (00:57:25):
Thank you for everything. And quite honestly, none of this would be possible without the three of you, without Ron yourselves. So again, I just hope everyone can appreciate the amount of work, the amount of dedication, and that none of this is easy, that all of it is rather challenging. But all of you have given so much to dog owners, to dog handlers, to the dogs obviously, but also to those of us in the professional realm. And I just hope that you can just pat yourself in the back every now and again because we take you both for granted all the time. We just assume, oh, he is always going to be Amy and Jill just going out and doing things for us. But I hope that you really do understand how much you've given to all of us. So thank you.

Jill Marie O'Brien (00:58:08):
I think it goes both ways. I think I always want to make sure that especially those that are in the instructor program, but all the competitors, whether they compete in NACSW trials or in other venues in other countries or here and our instructors, how much they mean to us, and we get as much back from the community at large as we hope that we're able to give. So again, thank you, and we'll always try to make ourselves available when we can.

Dianna L. Santos (00:58:39):
I want to give a very huge thank you to both Amy and Jill for joining me for this conversation. Again, I hope that it was able to put forth just how valuable this program is. Again, being someone who has gone through the program, it is really superb. So if there is anyone out there who is interested in potentially offering knows where classes as an instructor, I highly, highly, highly recommend that you check this out. It is really good and it provides you with so much valuable information, and it's not simply just about setting hides. It's about offering the kind of flexibility that our canine and human clients need so that we can meet their needs where they are. And again, the building of empathy that you would be able to develop inside of your classes can benefit all of your students, and that can then bleed over to other things that they may be doing, maybe in your other classes that you may be offering, even just how they see their dogs, the way that you're able to cultivate that relationship and have it grow even deeper because it's all centered around scenting, which makes lots of sense to the dogs, and being able to be a conduit to allow those dogs to express themselves in a way that just makes sense.

(00:59:52):
Oh, it's just so good. So again, I highly recommend that everyone check out the instructor certification program. As Amy and Jill were mentioning. They do have a segment that is opening up in February, so there will be links inside of the podcast episode as well as when we're posting this up on our website and social media, we'll make sure we share all the stuff there. You can let us know what you thought about this episode. Maybe you are a CNWI and you've gone through the program. Please feel free to share your comments. Again, where we post this episode. We are looking forward to talking to more people within the community. Again, fellow colleagues, professionals, I want to talk to them all. So if there's someone in particular like, oh, I really wish you would talk to this person about this or that, or the other thing, please feel free to let me know. I want to speak with them. But as always, I want to thank you also very much for listening to the episode and for all of your support. We really do appreciate it. Please give a cookie to your puppies for me. Happy training. We look forward to seeing you soon.